oil pressure dropping to 0psi

[ford396]

Looking for some ideas here. I have a 360ci Dart little M billet block with restrictors in both ends of the lifter oil galleys, Peterson external wet sump pump, Bryant crank, Carrillo rods and no oil pressure after a couple of laps. It has a billet flat tappet cam & DLC lifters along with spring spray bars. No cheap stuff here but definitely not working as is.

I had this motor on the chassis dyno a couple of weeks ago and had no problems. We had our first track time this weekend and immediately started suffering a loss of oil pressure. It will run normal pressures for a few laps and then go away. Shut it down and restart pressure ok again. I installed the Go Pro camera pointing at the gauge and sure enough it would drop to 0 for a split second at the end of the straight. I tried adding additional court of oil, but it did not help. I then removed the oil lines going to the valve spring spray bars. This helped and allowed us to continue our testing.

I can live without the spray bars if needed, but when we got up around 8000 rpm our problem started coming back. I am afraid to take this to a bigger track as is.

Any ideas on how to solve this problem. I have a #12 line off from the front of left valve cover going to a breather can. Is this possibly the culprit. Something is causing my 7qrt pan to run dry. Not sure how to get it back to the bottom any sooner.

I would appreciate any help from some of you who may have had similar experiences.

[usafracer]

Sounds like you might have to much oil in it and its foaming up.

[Egoracing]

Looking for some ideas here. I have a 360ci Dart little M billet block with restrictors in both ends of the lifter oil galleys, Peterson external wet sump pump, Bryant crank, Carrillo rods and no oil pressure after a couple of laps. It has a billet flat tappet cam & DLC lifters along with spring spray bars. No cheap stuff here but definitely not working as is.

I had this motor on the chassis dyno a couple of weeks ago and had no problems. We had our first track time this weekend and immediately started suffering a loss of oil pressure. It will run normal pressures for a few laps and then go away. Shut it down and restart pressure ok again. I installed the Go Pro camera pointing at the gauge and sure enough it would drop to 0 for a split second at the end of the straight. I tried adding additional court of oil, but it did not help. I then removed the oil lines going to the valve spring spray bars. This helped and allowed us to continue our testing.

I can live without the spray bars if needed, but when we got up around 8000 rpm our problem started coming back. I am afraid to take this to a bigger track as is.

Any ideas on how to solve this problem. I have a #12 line off from the front of left valve cover going to a breather can. Is this possibly the culprit. Something is causing my 7qrt pan to run dry. Not sure how to get it back to the bottom any sooner.

I would appreciate any help from some of you who may have had similar experiences.

Are you running enough oil in the pan?? It almost sounds like you are sucking the pan dry. Also check the pan bottom to make sure you did not dent it in and cause it to bind the trap doors shut.

[ford396]

Ego, I am sure that I am indeed sucking the pan dry. The bottom of the pan is nice an new. Hell it still has a nice shine to it I tried adding an additional quart and it did not help?

Does anyone have an exact number that would be referenced from the oil pan rail, as to what the oil level should be.

[stock car driver]

The full hole I drill in the side of my pans is 4 5/16 from the pan rail. I copied that location off a pan I had which had the full hole.

It keeps the oil just in the sump, not up into the fwd part of the pan.

The only times Ive had my oil psi drop to zero like that I was 3 qts low on oil and I have had a few pick kevco pick up tubes break off.

[Egoracing]

I would call the pan mfg and tell them what I was using and see what they say. Stock Car Driver has a valid point but if you use it while running a deck mounted oil cooler or your vlave cover sprayers the pan will be empty and your bearings will fail as the required added volume for the lines and cooler will use up what is in the pan unless you are checking it while it is running and then you could end up with a mess.

[SRXSRULE]

Pull the pan. Check the gates for operation (ive had some bad right out of the box). Double check the pick-up tube is not broke/cracked and also make sure the clearance to the floor of the oil pan is correct. Eric

[stock car driver]

When I ran a heat exchanger... I filled it and the lines with oil separately to verify exactly how much oil I needed in the pan. the fill hole in the side will work with out the coolers etc but you need to verify the complete system and theres no way I know of to do it running.

[gun91]

What kind of oil filter are you running? I have seen very similar problems with oil filters collapsing inside. Pressure was fine for a few laps then gone. I only run wix filters and have never had a problem since changing. Everytime I have seen it happen with the filter it was either store brand (oreillys) or fram

[ford396]

I run the 2qrt Wix filter and it does have a cooler plumbed in between the filter and the block. On my initial fill, I have about 10 qrt of oil in engine after all of the plumbing is full.

I think I will pull the pan and check the trap doors. It is a new Moroso pan that I had built for this engine. I definitely need to find the culprit or I will have a big boat anchor soon.

[Egoracing]

I agree on pulling the pan, I have seen one top brand name pan that had the doors in backwards. They replaced it and offered to fix any damage but luckly the guy caught it before he used it.

[SS Motorsports]

You may also have some lines that are being sucked flat, especially if some of the hoses were old.

[ford396]

OK. I had the opportunity to remove the oil pan tonight. I do not see any trap doors stuck nor do I see any other signs of concern. It is a Moroso pan with a 1" tube going to a box pickup and an AN 16 fitting on the left side of the pan. I do question their decision to place the box 2" from the right side of the pan. Seems like I am wasting a lot of capacity that is beyond the pickup box. Does anyone have any experience with these pickups. It seems to me that if the oil level drops below the top of the tube, it will be exposed to air and therefore cause my cavitation??? I have seen some kits that use the 1" tube with a simple slot cut in the bottom. It seems that this would be more effective?

I am going to contact Moroso tomorrow and see what they have to say. I am sure that I already know, and I now have a $600 paperweight.

The hose from pan to pump is less than 12" long and is new, so I do not think it is possible to be sucked shut.

[FLYNBRYAN]

Have you tried another oil pressure gauge?
Do you have any hard 90 deg fittings in the system?
The pump could be bypassing internally
What are you oil temps?

[Egoracing]

We ran one on an asphalt modified but I can not remember the amount of oil we had in it. Which pan part # are you running?

[ford396]

Ego: the pan is a custom unit from Moroso. As I type this, it is on its way back to them. They are going to revamp the pickup box. I sure hope it works. Unfortunately, I am now home from the track for at least another week.

[andy16]

something i do just for verification is on my dry sump pressure in port in the front of the block where your vc sprayer lines hook up i have a small 1/8 pipe oil pressure guage to show me what my "pump" pressure is going into the motor i then compare that to my oil pressure guage that is connected to the rear of the block and i know my loss thru the motor. this shows me if i have a pump/line/filter problem or a internal engine problem. also when i start the car from behind the tire i dont have to walk around and look in the cpit.

sounds like you found a possible problem anyway hope it works out. while you got the pan off id pull a main down and a rod cap or two off and see what they look like. id pull #5 main down for sure the one by the rear of block. always the worst on my motors.

[halfast07]

On the older style blocks you would see and variation in the bearings if there was an oiling problem from front to rear. But he has a dart block and it should have a main bearing priority oiling .you will not see the problems with this system..do you have the lifter galley sealed off from the rest off the engine? this can and will hold the oil in the top end of the engine if the returns are not sufficient. I had the same problem a couple years ago. good luck

[ford396]

I pulled the #3 and 4 main caps. Bearings looked like new. I did not pull any rod caps. Maybe I should?? The lifter valley is not sealed off at all. In fact, the Little M is wide open in the valley. I do not believe I have a drain back problem. If I did, I believe I would see oil in the breather can??

Andy 16: I am in fact oiling from the front and reading pressure in the back. My spring oilers are fed from the back of the block. I do not think this would cause any concerns?? I like your idea of another gauge. I suppose it is possible that the front of the motor still had some oil getting to it, but not enough to hold pressure to the other end of the block.

I sure hope the revamp of the pan solves my problem.

On a side note, I have a dipstick installed in the block and have the level set to 4 3/8 from the pain rail. Do you guys think it would be wise to attempt to check the level of oil while the motor is running, thereby; eliminating the possibility that I am not starting with enough oil in the pan????

Thank you guys for all of your input.

[dynoman14]

You would be surprised how much oil cooler lines, coolers, filters etc. take up. The valve cover oilers alone should account for +2qts.

I don't think your pan had a problem at all, you just underestimated how much oil you needed in your system.

7qt pan +1...2qts for cooler and lines, 2qts for filter, 2qts for cover oilers, and an extra 1-2qts for external oil pump. 14qts minimum 16 qts max.

You have to consider the drain back involved in the deal of a running engine that does not have vacuum assist to get the oil back to the pan and into the oil pump again.

Where do you have your external pump located. If it is above the oil pan it is most likely cavitating on the 9-10 qts you are running.

If I was you I would seriously look into a Canton Accusump system as I have run them on every Ford engine that has run an external oil pump as they all have the same problem. They store about 1/2 the oil in drain backs, lifter valley etc. especially on wet sump systems that make some pressure in the engine blowing out of the VC breathers, that pressure will prevent oil from draining back and contribute even more to your problem.

Don't be overly concerned with running too much oil as it is evident by your pressure problems that you have not hit an adequate level yet.

I have not yet found an engine that was hindered by a couple quarts too many but sure enough hurt by a couple quarts not enough. As your dart is priority mains, I would look at the pushrods and pushrod cups in the rockers to see if they are dark from heat / lack of oil. Rods and mains will prolly be fine but other areas down the line may be compromised.

On your chassis dyno test did you ever do 20-30 back to back pulls to confirm the operation of oiling system. I do this on all cars that I run on my ChassisDYno to establish power drop and dynamic friction losses, I am also able to gather data on Inertia gains and losses in the system this way. When I do them it is just like you are racing the car on the track, 2500-7500, 40 times in a row will get you the equivalent of 20laps. I also get a great read on fuel consumption and cooling capacity.