Starter grinding on flywheel

[Buckle]

I am working on a ford 2.3 ministock, and we got a used Sonic Mach series clutch for the car during the off-season. The clutch is advertised to be for a 2.3/2.0 Pinto.

We are running a pinto bellhousing, transmission and starter with this clutch. When we tried to start the car, we could hear that there was a big problem with the engagement of starter to flywheel. It made a ton of noise, but would start the car. We could get the car running and could hear that the starter gear was NOT hung up, so we decided to run it. At the races, the darn thing just quit. We could hear the starter spinning but it would not even engage to the flywheel. We changed starters at the track and got it to work for the first two times, then it just would not engage.

At the shop, what we have tried so far: different Pinto bellhousings, shimming starter motor in and out relative to bellhousing, changing amount of shim used, tried different starter types (Ranger high torque and Pinto style). Things have gotten no better. The teeth on the flywheel are chewed as are is the gear on the starter drive.

I've searched a few of the archived forums about different starter toothcount (9 vs. 10) and such and have even contacted the tech folks at Tilton. They said it should basically be a "bolt and go" product.

We have indicated the flywheel for runout and concentric and everything looks fine.
Battery strength is 12V when attempting to start.

Hoping to get some guidance on how to get this problem solved, but we are ready to remove the clutch setup and go back to the one we used last year until we perform some type of voodoo ceremony over the darn thing.

Thanks,

Doc

[car62]

1st question...is the plate between the block and bellhousing?

[Buckle]

Car 62,

Yes, but I actually had two plates riveted together in there (long story--done for throwout clearance a long time ago). This was how we first set the whole thing up. I can remove one of the two plates and try again.

[supertruck]

I had a similar problem with one of the 10,000 RPM lightweight flywheels and tried everything - regular and hi-torque starters, different tooth count on the starter, spacer plates, etc, nothing worked. Finally mocked it up on a stand and could see that the flywheel was actually flexing just enough to make the starter grind and drag. finally sold it and went back to what i was using before.

[Buckle]

Thanks the input Supertruck. The flexing issue makes sense.

What I found last night was that when the starter does manage to turn the motor over, it makes a hell of a noise as the gear recoils, producing a ringing sound. I think at this point, the flywheel teeth are messed up, so I need to clean those up in case they are adding to the meshing problem and try the one plate in between the motor and trans. What I did notice was that when I mocked the setup with just bellhousing on car, the starter motor had some play on the three bolts that hold it to the bellhousing and that was enough to cause the motor to either engage with some noise or not engage and shred teeth. I keep waiting for the "duh" moment when I realize I'm missing something really simple. If I figure this out, I'll definitely post my findings.

[car62]

many years ago i had the same issue on another car...instead of spacing front to rear,i ended up spacing just the bottom bolt closest to the oil pan out about 3/16" to get the teeth in deepr on the flywheel...these block are soft and if the engine was ever in a car that was wrecked fairly hard,its not uncommon for the back of the engine to be "not true or square"

[let-r-eat]

Pull the transmission away from the bellhousing so you can see good and engage the bendix on the starter by hand with the flywheel attached. Look at the engagement. Straighten out a paper clip and adjust the starter so that the paperclip will slide snuggly in and out of the gear mesh. You should be able to place a paper clip only between the gear on the starter and flywheel with the bendix engaged. If the teeth are chunked by all means go buy another flexplate. Don't fool around with junk for $50 bill. A starter should be setup with engine out of car and flywheel attached.

[Milford Motorsports]

I think you forget that the starter bolts to the bellhousing not the block.I guess with the tranny un bolted you may be able to see the bendix gear somewhat.

[let-r-eat]

I think you forget that the starter bolts to the bellhousing not the block.I guess with the tranny un bolted you may be able to see the bendix gear somewhat.

Thanks for catching that Milford. I meant trans from bellhousing.

[checkeredflag2006]

had guys that race with us have same problem sold that junk got goldstar no more problems!!!!!!!

[Buckle]

Okay everyone, this is what I have found out so far.

The flywheel meshes best with a 10 tooth starter. We are currently using a Ranger style starter that we had in the shop. The aluminum plate we had in the car had slightly oblong dowel holes so we switched it out for a much fresher one.

We did clean up the flywheel as they are about $300-400 to replace just that part.

The teeth pitch between the 9 and 10 tooth starters is similar BUT the overal diameter of the starter gear is bit larger (9 tooth is about 1" and 10 tooth is a bout 1.060 if I am measuring correctly).

Despite all attempts to shim, space, etc any 9 tooth style of starter, the noise was pretty bad when cranking and even worse when the starter button was released and the gear disengaged.

As soon as I changed to the 10 tooth starter, it still makes some noise, but I got a nice smooth retraction of the gear. I did need to shim out the starter with equal thickness washers since the nose of this type of starter sits a bit deeper into the bellhousing, making it too close to the flywheel for comfort if any flexing is encountered.

We are going to put everything back together and try to move the car around a bit and see if we can reproduce the starter failure. If not, we plan to race with it this Saturday and see what happens.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this might solve this problem, but only after cycling the car through a race day will we know more.

Thanks everyone for your insight and input and I'll keep you updated if anything more is encountered and if you are still curious.

Doc

[Buckle]

Okay everyone,

We got the starter issue solved with the Sonic clutch but we continued to have problems with the stiffness of the pressure plate. When initally setting this thing up, we had to install an aluminum quadrant adjuster since the plastic one was getting shredded. With the aluminum quadrant, the driver could get the clutch to disengage with the pedal fully depressed (but it took some effort). There is so much pressure holding the clutch disc that during practice this weekend, we basically blew out the plastic piece of the cable that rides in a "U" in the bellhousing. We managed to bandage it in time for feature. We got hit hard in the inital laps, the car spun and lost power and then the starter would not engage and was grinding against flywheel once again.

So, the clutch is coming off and a little bit heavier but tried and true clutch is going back on to stop us from chasing our tails. We'd rather concentrate on setup than chase mechanical issues.

Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions!

Doc

[Trone12]

Is there any more insite or people having this issue. I am having it. I am going to currently try and find a 132 tooth flex plate with my 10 tooth high torque starter. To see if this helps. I would like to see this thread start again. I have missed 2 weeks of racing due to destroying starters and flex plates and when you live in northern Michigan the 3 month race season goes pretty quick. Please help. By the way I am running a flex plate bolted to a new motion clutch system.

[Buckle]

if so, I'd say toss it. There are more dependable flywheel/clutch combos out there. I tried to find this flywheel and they are done making them and this goes about 3-4 years back from what I understand. I tracked down the last one at some vendor in NC but I wasn't confident about having resolved the problem. Sorry, but I spent a ton of time and maybe these are designed to go on a performance bellhousing or something like that where the started bolt hole tolerances are tighter for this particular setup.

doc