differences in crate HP builder to builder

[Chico]

What can you expect in real HP differences builder to builder since the rules are supposed to be uniform

[brad hibbard]

What can you expect in real HP differences builder to builder since the rules are supposed to be uniform

Chico,

first off---I see your signature statement and absolutely agrree that we have to support our troops in harms way----God watch over them

to answer yor question from an engine builders stand point..............................

there is NO difference in legal power from a "normal" rebuild from builder to builder

what the difference is -----IS SERVICE-----there are plenty of rebuilders who are there to help you with the expieience they have and there are plenty of rebuilders who are out to influence you as to extra HP that just isn't there-------be cautious-------if it sounds too good too be true----------- well you know


Brad

[Steve_Hendren]

I agree with Brad 110%. What you will find is, most of us are doing the same thing when rebuilding a 604. So for the most part, each engine builder is pretty much equal. Brad is also correct, that service to customers probably sets one apart from the other in a customers eye's. I think experience is a factor as well, along with continuous testing of external components. To me, as a builder, and someone who shares information with other builders on a daily basis....the biggest differences that you will see come from outside of the engine its self. It's the little thing's that we develop as a package that make the biggest improvements to your racing efforts. As a builder and a racer myself, and after having driven these cars since I quit racing Supers, I'll be honest and tell you that if I or someone else picks you up 15hp over what you had before.....you wont notice it unless your car is right. In other words, legal HP & Torque gains are worth nothing unless you have 4 tires under you that do what they are supposed to do. The difference between winning and losing isn't 15-20hp, it's a matter of not turning left too far, and not turning right too far from night to night and track to track. But with that being said, if you're kicking a dead horse to start with (i.e. bad engine), then it makes the car handling part that much worse. If you're looking to find a rebuilder, my suggestion would be to ask around your local tracks, and see who has a good reputation for customer service, advice, and honesty. Odds are, there might be many in your area worth talking to. Brad at Race 1 and a few others come to mind if I needed one done and couldn't do it myself.

Brad is also 100% correct about being careful who you choose (being cautious). There are some who like to spout off big numbers, sell you bs that no one will corroborated in writing or in independent testing, and make claims that are simply not true. Brad hit the nail on the head....if it sounds too good to be true, then........I'd bet money, and I have, that it's entirely too good to be true!!!

[Matt49]

Both Brad and Steve are reputable engine builders and noted for their service.
I can personally vouch for Brad as we purchased a motor through him and when I had questions, he was a phone call away and happy to help. Based on numerous accounts, I'm certain Steve is the same way.

In racing, the relationships you build with people are much more important than the products that people build.

[Chico]

Thanks Guys I'm pretty good with SBCs and can build a pretty decent motor but I 've been kicking around the idea of crates for a few yrs and hopefully everything is getting lined up where I can play full time again and like everyone you hear some of this some of that some of this and some of that and just couldn't imagine some of it to be true I've always looked to driveability (sp) as a main requirement for my cars so once again thanks I may have to ask so more questions so bear with me Thanks Again

[sj valley dave]

@ pieman...if you think that 15 hp is going to make big changes in your bite/bar set up, you are smoking some good stuff. I also don't trust people that won't use spell check and try and act like they know more than they do...LOL

[Chico]

then you must love Pieman LOL

[Chico]

Pieman I need all the input I can get so I can make the right call Thanks for your help and all the rest also

[Egoracing]

chico
602/604 engines.
picking a engine builder is a tuff chioce.
evan picking a store to get one from.
home work pays off.
find out who puts 2inch seats in say..
anothers drivers motor and not the one you get..
or allittle bigger cam..
and if you do get lucky and get one..
now you gota take a chance on gettin throwed out..
i know of some certified builders that get away with too much stuff.
so do your home work..
i know a good guy ..
he does not post on here ..
he's certified nesmith&fastrack.
he knows wats up and is 100% legal..
you may be too far away..

Who would that be and where is he? Just wondering?

[turner]

Around here Scott weber pretty much wins every week, and when Randy Korte drove the car, he won every week.. They are both great drivers, and i know UMP has taken the motor atleast once and it was totally legal after inspection. I will be honest, and say that it looks like they have more power, but they fly around the corners. I think a good car and good driver will go way farther than a cheated up engine will take ya.

[Egoracing]

Around here Scott weber pretty much wins every week, and when Randy Korte drove the car, he won every week.. They are both great drivers, and i know UMP has taken the motor atleast once and it was totally legal after inspection. I will be honest, and say that it looks like they have more power, but they fly around the corners. I think a good car and good driver will go way farther than a cheated up engine will take ya.

We won many races with a 3 year old crate against limited and super lates on a small 3/8 mile track and did it in dominating fashion. 8th or 9th to first in less than one lap of the heat race type of dominating. The track is almost flat and hard like a baseball diamond clay. We hit on a setup that he could go around the track with VERY little steering input and that car would flat fly. Running lap times a full 1-1.5 seconds faster than the other cars. The more HP a car had the farther back they finished but everyones answer was to run a bigger engine in the next race???? Go figure.

[Steve_Hendren]

chico
find out who puts 2inch seats in say..
anothers drivers motor and not the one you get..

I'm just wondering how you put a 2" valve seat in a 2.034" hole, when the stock seat diameter is 2.040"??? Magic??? Stupidity??? Total ignorance??? As any crate engine builder will tell you, the stock valve seats break apart on the 45 degree angle due to lack of support from being too high in the chamber and not supported by the aluminum in the chamber its self, sustained valve float, or the poor material that GM uses for the stock seat, and sometimes a combination of all three thing's. On average my shop changes about 20 valve seats per week, for our customers and for about 6 different certified engines builders who send their heads to us for repair. Since GM does not make a repair seat for 604 heads, we have to have these seats made privately. The seat's we use to repair the GM 604 head is a 2.060" diameter seat (which we have made), which gives you a total of .010" per side to clean the valve seat area at 2.054" and install the repair seat giving a .006" press fit. Thanks to our Newen BB Contour machine, we are able to then completely duplicate the original GM valve seat to a "T" after installation. These $12 repair seat's save the racer, and other engine builders who use our service a ton of cash, considering the alternative will be a new head or a two priced at $750.00 + each. So changing valve seat's is common practice among pretty much every engine builder who see's more than one or two engines per year, and cares about their customers wallet more than their own. BTW I'd be careful who you listen to on here, because a few people have no clue what they are talking about!

[Steve_Hendren]

well Steve.
i dont know what to tell ya.
either youve never built a badass sets of heads before,
or you have no imagination.
.

Well to the best of my knowledge, badass set's of heads are reserved for the other part of this forum that has no rules of limit on expense. As for no imagination, you're 100% correct since I can't imagine putting a 2.0000" valve seat in a 2.034" hole. Guess I'm just silly for not living in an imaginary world :-((

[dirty white boy]

well Steve.
i dont know what to tell ya.
either youve never built a badass sets of heads before,
or you have no imagination.
Ego with alldue respect.
money talks.
he doesnt post on here and im not saying.

if i havent ever did something i wouldnt argue with someone that makes there living doing it...

[Egoracing]

money talks.
he doesnt post on here and im not saying.

So you want to be paid to tell who is building legal engines, seem BS talks also. It sound more like you are trying to cover up and make some money for someone who has not been caught yet. I say yet because if you are cheating and doing ANY good you will get caught. The reason I was asking is because there is an engine builder that has been caught recently selling crates that had illegal modifications in the engines.

[Steve_Hendren]

steve
please answer the question, that has alredy ben asked.
how do you get by cuttin past the seat with Newen cutters?
on your 604 program..
does fastrack let that fly???
or only the one car?
2 inch seats haha!

im a private engine builder/chassis builder
ive ben building motors for 29 years

LOL!! Normally I wouldn't bother with a stupid question like this, but I'm in a good mood so why not ;-)

The simple answer is you don't because that's not legal in any sanctioning body that follows the GM Rule Book. So I would highly suggest you protest any engine that you suspect of having work done below the seat, and make sure that engine builder gets band asap!! Feel free to follow this link to our Facebook page, and view the work we do with our NEWEN on 604 cylinder heads. I even updated it with 3 new photo's today, just for you :-) http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1&l=bd7aee8c55

I'm curious who "the one car" is??

What is your obsession with a 2" valve seat? I thought I set you straight on that already......

[dirty white boy]

steve
please answer the question, that has alredy ben asked.
how do you get by cuttin past the seat with Newen cutters?
on your 604 program..
does fastrack let that fly???
or only the one car?
2 inch seats haha!
Ego
you think everyone is full of BS..
but thats ok you just keep rite on thinking..
and ya ego money does talk ,
if you or chico want a good legal motor . money talks
i can hook you up..
but im not tellin his name...
he doesnt want anything to do with this board & i dont blame him
its cuase of butholes like you..&a few others.
and i am sorry for calling you a pos.
DWB
im a private engine builder/chassis builder
ive ben building motors for 29 years
ya and i can drive too ...
so i dont know what to tell you either.
other than shut up!
see you guys later.

how many crate motors you built? are you a certified crate builder,if so,..what sanctions you approved for?? how many crate races your motors won?

i see steves motors in cars at every track in the area,..see them win,..see them protested an pass tech,..see then sell for lot more with 2 seasons on them than a new gm,..any body cant type words on a key bord,..without factual data an real world results,..its just a bias opinion...do the letters F and U mean anything to you??

[turner]

I dont know alot about engines, when Randy Korte drive the 8 ball crate, he destroys them every nite. He hasn'
t driven it alot this year, but Scott weber has. He also pretty much wins every week. I know ump took there engine last year, and it was legal. I will be honest , by the way he beat them , it looked like he had more power, but i know a good driver and car is tough to beat.

[Matt49]

It's amazing how many people think that more HP is the "solution" to why they aren't running up front even though they haven't figured out how to hook up the HP they have.

[Chico]

My deal is I'm just trying to get into them so why not start with the best if I can with Both HP and durability I realize that a car has to handle But Handling down a str8 is nice also