HP Influenced by Stagger & Tire Pressure

[dynoman14]

Got asked by someone in another thread to post info on this;
About 50% of a race vehicles energy output is consumed by friction and dissipated as heat...
Although you might never have thought about it the Cf of a race car has a large factor involved in the tires...

Back about 30 years ago I was a top level race bike builder for Bikeways of Tucker and I built some of the most expensive bikes and wheels in the country $10,000+ for bikes and $1000-$2500 for wheelsets. Jobst Brandt was one of the foremost wheel engineers in the world for a long time and his book is one of the best on how to get max HP out of a set of spoke laced wheels. My fastest and best racers ran Italian Silk tires and they were pumped up to 125-150psi. That being said...

Tire pressure in race tires can increase RWHP up to 2HP per 1# pressure increase, why do you think they have maximum tire pressure rules for CUP races??? Surely not for safety.

At Daytona and Talladega we had a couple really goo tricks for running +5-10psi and still passing tech. Learning how to use inner liners to your inner liners to your advantage you can pick up 1/2 second a lap in Qualifying.

Tire Stagger is the same deal, the more you run the more drag you put on the car up the straight. The key is to get maximum turn in the corner with less stagger as it is as much as +/-10HP per inch... on both pavement and dirt.

As to how you test it on the chassis dyno you just get an air gauge and raise the air pressure in both rear tires as to not change stagger.

As for stagger you just change the LR smaller or RR bigger and do it an inch at a time and see what happens.

I have done this testing at least 50 times for teams and customers over the past 25 years and most folks don't believe the results til they try it at the track and see the results.

Another post that relates to this is the one on the use of locking diffs on dirt. If you know what you are doing there is 25RWHP in this system.

Your chassis dyno needs to be run in uncorrected mode, with no curve smoothing and has to be accurate to less than 1% to produce credible numbers. This eliminates about 99% of the chassis dynos out there but you will still see some changes hopefully.

A lot of folks don't see the stuff I do because the repeatability and accuracy of their instrumentation, software and inertia wheel is not capable of showing A/B/A repeatability to less than 1%.

[Egoracing]

"At Daytona and Talladega we had a couple really goo tricks for running +5-10psi and still passing tech. Learning how to use inner liners to your inner liners to your advantage you can pick up 1/2 second a lap in Qualifying."

Dyno dummy Nascar mounts the tires and has for MANY years, there is NO way you were getting a secondary inner liner into the combo. Besides the fact that the inner liner has ZERO effect on the tire presssure the same way that the steel wheel has no effect and the linners are already run at a higher pressure than the tire is. Also Nascar mandates the pressure on the inner liner for safety and measures it.

[zeroracing]

Increasing air pressure in the tire would reduce drag because it will decrease contact patch area. Which will lower both longitudinal and lateral grip. This trick would only help if you already are not driving on the edge of your cars lateral capacity, and do not have enough motor to spin the tires or enough brakes to lock them up. If your not driving at the limit of the car before, then what is more HP at the rear wheels going to do, give you more potential car to waste?

I have never ran a crate car, if they dont have enough power to even spin a tire then that would make for one boring race car... better put an alarm in the car to keep the driver awake.

[Matt49]

Decreasing air pressure in the tire would reduce drag because it will decrease contact patch area. Which will lower both longitudinal and lateral grip. This trick would only help if you already are not driving on the edge of your cars lateral capacity, and do not have enough motor to spin the tires or enough brakes to lock them up. If your not driving at the limit of the car before, then what is more HP at the rear wheels going to do, give you more potential car to waste?

I have never ran a crate car, if they dont have enough power to even spin a tire then that would make for one boring race car... better put an alarm in the car to keep the driver awake.

Decreasing the air pressure in a tire INCREASES the contact patch area.
Less pounds per square inch of pressure inside the tire means more square inches in contact with the ground is needed to support the same weight.
This is of course as long as it isn't riding on the rim. Then it's the wheel holding the car up and not the air in the tire.

What dynoman seems to fail to understand is that oval track cars spend the majority of their time TURNING, accelerating, decelerating, or some combination of these.

We aren't drag racing and an extra 5 HP at the rear wheels has never won an oval track race.

[zeroracing]

That was a typo, meant to say Increasing Pressure. One of those thinking faster than typing.

[racer69]

I can't say for other tire brands but Hoosiers never ever grow the same with x amount of pressure! Each set we buy is a roll of the dice to get what we need. At times we have to go back and swap out a tire because its so far off. Luckily Baum's takes care of us there.

[dynoman14]

Last time I checked Drag cars don't run stagger...

I was referring to working with Oval track teams on dirt and pavement...

Just a short time back most dirt folks did not have a clue about bump stops, 5th coil binders, shock cushions and all the rest of the stuff from pavement racing.

If you do have a brain and you are able to discern what I posted you might learn something about your race car and how to free up some power. As there is a certain range for tire pressure and from what I have seen on lefts it is up to +/- 5# as well as 2-3# on rights there is significant power gains to run the higher pressure. I have seen dirt cars run 2"-7" tire stagger.

Why such a large difference??? I am told it is to get the car loose enough to turn??? Wonder how them guys running 2-3" get their cars to turn???

Depending on tire size, wheel width and tire loading the tire contact patch can sometimes increase with an increase in pressure. Working with tire engineers to determine the loads tires will take can greatly increase your ability to hook up a tire, while reducing the Cd of the tire.

As a former ARCA owner I was involved in 50+ tire tests for CUP teams as they were limited on testing and would SUB out the work and pay for all testing expenses to certain teams that purchased cars and engines from them. They still do it, rules don't state you can't test and ARCA car with Goodyear rubber in a private test session.

ego,
Inner liners as well as tires usually have a range of pressure allowed +/- 5#. If you know what you are doing you can get significant advantages with how you load your tires and what you use. That is one thing that NASCAR does not have the ability to check yet, trust me I know some very smart tire specialists and have worked closely with them on what goes into their tire filling cans.

As far as inner liner pressure affecting the outer air cushion you might want to think of it in terms of variable Spring Rate of the tire. If you are such a genius you might understand how that might effect the Cf and Cd of a tire. I think some of you dirt geniuses have started copying the Pavement Late Model trend of stacking springs with different rates to achieve greater tire grip. Seems like differential loading of the tire itself might achieve a similar result if you understood what I was talking about to begin with.

You can also control the rate of growth of the tire by the gases you use to fill your tires, if nitrogen is good to stabilize pressures wonder what gas might allow you to grow a tire quick if you need it?

Since you are such an expert, what could you coat the inside of a fuel can with to jack up the O2 content of the fuel. I designed and built a coating that I use on intake manifolds, fuel cans, fuel tanks and bladders fuel lines etc. just cause you don't have a clue about it, don't mean it don't exist.

[dirty white boy]

an you already sold the preparatory rights to the special tire dyno you designed to test these theory's and is leagly bound not to discuss such information any further.....and you lernt such theory's while on mars,..setting up surdi machines for aliens to use on there U.F.O.'s,.during the time you partyed with captin kerk an elvis,.........some body call the orderly's,...tell'um straight jacket stat,..an prepare the padded cell.....

[zeroracing]

Very little of our grip is generated by actual Cf, primarily we develop grip by mechanical keying and deformation. Most surfaces are too irregular to utilize full potential of Cf only, short of a glass plate.

Since we're having a quiz, why do wider tires generate more traction than narrow?

Note: I typically use very little stagger, due to modified habits and tend to drive straighter.

Final note, bump stops and other pavement ideas have also become more common as our track surface has tended to become smoother. The recent trend for tracks has been slick and smooth, before was heavy and rough. As we see dry tracks we can try more things that require a stable platform.

[Egoracing]

A secondary spring would only work IF it were touching the first spring at some point. DO it on an inner liner and the tire will not last and the friction would raise pressure until failure or no more friction was present. #2 You said "use inner liners to your inner liners". Please explain how you got them into the tires, where the 3rd valve stem was and how you got them back out with out Nascar busting you. They mount and take back the tires, Watch the races, they take the tires off the car and back to the trailer to get the tires pulled. Watched year after year at Daytona standing in the garage.

[C10]

Hell we were running bumps on dirt in 96.

[Matt49]

Dyno I know you think you know everything here amongst us dirt boys since you had so much success as a "big time" ARCA owner. How many races did you get a car to finish again? Keep your day-trading job.
Anyway, us boys on dirt spend 60-80% of the time (not DISTANCE...but TIME) TURNING. And we figured out a long time ago that what you lose/scrub on the straights due to stagger can be more than made up for in the turns which is where everybody is searching for traction anyway.
If you're running big pavement tracks with long straights where the driver can take a nap like most those snooze-fest ARCA races you could barely qualify for, you might have something...but you're barking up the wrong tree here and you're quite frankly outsmarted. Quit making a fool of yourself.
As far as how to get a car to take tight turns with just 2" of stagger...I think the people you're pretending to be smarter than (including myself) know just how to do that with a 4-bar car but I'd prefer not share it with you or anybody else that might be paying attention. You'll be claiming you invented it next week.
And what are you talking about with this "just a short time back dirt guys didn't know about bump stops"? Guys have been running them ever since LR spring behind setups became popular (over a decade ago). Do you know what that is or do you need it explained to you?

[MM90]

The special coating that you invented. Is that the same thing that Michael Waltrip got caught with at Daytona a few years ago?

[stockcar5]

I just got done adding 50 extra lbs of air to the rear tires on my truck. went from 50 to 100. went out and test drove it...i could really feel the extra 100hp from the additional 50lbs of air! It really works!!

[ford396]

MM90, Waltrip got caught with ACES lV didn't he? At least this is what I believe it to be.

Bob

[dynoman14]

Not saying I know everything or even a lot, just talking about the stuff I have done for myself and other folks over the past 35 years of racing. You can chose to do with it whatever...if you don't like it change the channel. I appreciate the couple hundred loyal 4m customers that have chosen to run my stuff over the past 5 years and even if they chose to keep on the down-lo I still like all the "Winners Circle" pics they send me on a weekly basis.

C-10 more power to you, we were running them in Super and Late Model stock at Lanier and in SAS Supers & NASCAR All-Pro in the early 90's when they were the MacDaddy SLM classes for Pavement. You might want to check where Pro and Carerra started business... just a couple miles up the road. When I went to work as Tech Director at Dixie Speedway in the later 90's I introduced a couple folks to the idea and it worked pretty good for them.

MWR was caught using a form of paste in the intake manifold and air cleaner that closely resembles sterno, but with a more oxygenated mix of chemicals. Call a couple fuel companies if you want to find it an buy it for your own cars. If not I can sell you my version of it, it is pretty much non-detectable if applied properly.

The coating I am referring to is not something that you just wipe on, it is similar to an epoxy but has electrical conductivity and reacts with long chain hydrocarbons and iso-octane molecules. It has been used in other industries as a catalyst for reactions requiring high pressure containment and minimal mechanical mixing due to high volatility. It is also used in afterburners on jet engines to complete the combustion of unburned fuel being emitted in the afterburn process.

The Inner Liner deal I used then still works. I did use the phrase twice in the same sentence without catching it. Hope the semantics did not confuse you too badly. I guess I should have worked harder in my writing classes. We only used one inner liner and 2 valve stems. I also perfected using modified valve stems as bleeders and still use them today on dirt and pavement. When I raced in ARCA in 99-02 we mounted our own tires if we wanted to. I think the end of 02 is when ARCA started requiring rental wheels and tires impounded by Hoosier. It certainly was not because we were running 13# double walled cro-mo wheels, LW inner liners turned on a tire lathe, camber cut tires and schrader valves that worked like bleeders....

If making fun of an idea or comment is your way of being intelligent more power to you, you are definitely showing what you really are.

As far as stock trading goes, if you morons would have bought shares of Bank of America last year when I was first discussing it you would have made 250% as it hit $12 last week. I still trade for 2 hours a day MWF on a 5c swing and make $500 a trade on 10,000 share lots. It ain't much but when you do it 10 times a morning it is enough to cover my nut anyway.

BTW, Just purchased 2 Dirt cars over the weekend and I'll post you where to follow progress if you want to. New web format coming for 2013 if I can get it all together.

As far as ARCA races went my rental drivers qualified in on time for every race I ever attended and only use on provisional for a rain race for a rookie rental driver. Never won one, athough I did have a rental car win one, and finished top 5 a couple times. Every engine I ever rented also made the shows on time and I was blessed enough to never have an engine failure in over 10,000 laps and 30+ races.

As for you tire experts, traction in dirt cars is usually governed by slip ratio and side bite. When I am discussing cf it is the "coefficient of friction" of the rolling tire. I did not say anything about traction. If you can minimize the cf without negative effects on your tire contact patch than you will roll faster...it is not rocket science. We tested at a dirt track a couple months ago with about 5 sets of tires with incremental differences in roll-out and the less stagger used generated faster lap times. More air pressure did the same thing until it caused the tires to lose traction. Left sides took way more pressure than I would have thought...

I have had a lot of inquiries about when we will be opening up the shop to the public for the retail New and Used Parts BIZ and well we are already doing it. We should be getting new and used parts in every day as well as consignment cars. The 15,000SqFt shop is filling up pretty quick. We have already sold a couple hundred sheets of 4x10 for intro price of $50 sheet. New batch will be $60 sheet so we can pay the electic bill and the pretty ladies in the office. We are pretty much "by appointment" as we have been super busy testing the 2 New Port City cars to get ready for Lanier in a couple weeks. The second Late Model will be a rental car and has already run below the Pole Q speeds at AndersonSC in practice on scuffs with a couple rookie dirt drivers.

Man do dirt drivers know how to wheel a pavement car.

The second of the 2 dirt cars is a BWRC LW car designed for crate and hope to get it rented out for some big races real soon.

[dynoman14]

BTW, for those of you that can read, you might gain some knowledge from one of the masters in Wheel building, you can google Jobst Brandt if you want to find his books or other info.

For a more current application to motorsport you might want to investigate an article based on FARInfraRed tire treatments called "DarkTechnologies" , it is just from a couple of them stupid F-1 guys so it is prolly BS too.

I have already built a small system for Kart tires and they are testing almost 1 sec faster per lap than professionally treated tires costing $600 set. Working on a system for my dirt and pavement tires for this year. Don't worry I won't be trying to sell it to anybody in the near future.

[Egoracing]

At Daytona and Talladega we had a couple really goo tricks for running +5-10psi and still passing tech. Learning how to use inner liners to your inner liners to your advantage you can pick up 1/2 second a lap in Qualifying.

There was no typo, You CLEARLY put "inner liners to your inner liners" Again, busted in a lie and change your story.
And if you were so smart you would know that variable rate springs only work if they are touching. Putting a spring in the drivers seat will not increase the wheel rate.

[TeamGRT12x]

Post some pics of these cars, the stacker and the equipment.

I would be interested in renting a ride for the upcoming 8 days race swing for supers thats coming up at New Smyrna. If your team has enough help and spares to keep the port city rental car going that many days in a row?

I may be going down to Speedweeks. I think this is a great idea. Jeff's won many asphalt races, so he's probably better than your "dirt drivers".

[Matt49]

What's the address of this 15,000 square foot facility?
A couple of weeks ago on another thread you said it would be open to walk-in business in a couple of weeks. Now it is "by appointment only". Funny how your stories always change so that nobody can keep track of what you are really working on.
Does this facility actually exist anywhere but in your mind?

"Couple hundred loyal 4m customer"???
Where are they to back your claims besides a brand new screen name that when I asked them where they raced that couldn't tell me?

I seem to recall Hendrens saying that he would give a pretty good some of money to anybody that could provide any of your parts so that he could run them on a dyno, apples for apples, against other stuff. $1000 if I recall correctly. NOBODY ever took him up on it. With a couple hundred 4m users using your stuff you would think 1 of them would be interested in a thousand dollars in exchange for sending off one of your parts.
$1000 buys a lot of oil filters, treated valve springs, headers, oil, etc. but nobody would send him a single thing to be independently tested to validate a single one of your ridiculous claims.