crates future

[Matt49]

While we're back on this topic, I want to add my two cents on an idea for a "limited" late model class that I think would work. By "would work" I mean that it would keep cost down AND be relatively easy to tech.
First, let me say this:
I am a racer
I do race crates today
I cannot afford to race an open late model every week
I am not an engine builder
I am not a promoter
I do not claim to have all the answers but I have this idea:
The engine rules would be pretty simple:
1) Steel block based on American-made small block design
2) Wet sump oiling system
3) 23 degree heads
4) Single 4-barrel carburetor with a size limit
5) HEI distributor (no MSD boxes or external coils)

Rule 1 is easy to tech and enforce.
Rule 1 keeps cost down as steel blocks are much cheaper and it allows you to take advantage of the weight break provided to steel blocks when running with open competition motors (most track and sanction rules I've seen)

Rule 2 is easy to tech and enforce.
Rule 2 indirectly keeps costs down by making durability a bigger concern than raw power when building your engine

Rule 3 SHOULD be easy to tech and enforce but I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there that will be able to change the valve angles and make it appear 23 from the outside. But we could still come up with an easy way to enforce this.
Rule 3 keeps costs down because 23 degree stuff is a dime a dozen compared to the more exotic heads

Rule 4 I think should be easy to tech with some sort of no-go gauge
Rule 4 indirectly keeps costs down. No point in having a 434 cube motor if you can’t get enough air to it to run past 7000 RMPs. Make the limit like 850 CFM and see where that gets us.

Rule 5 should be easy to enforce also
Rule 5 indirectly keeps costs down. No point in having a huge high compression motor if you can’t get enough spark to it to keep it running.

My guess is that this rules package would create a class of 650-700 HP late models that would keep costs down, be competitive, and provide the fans with what they are looking for.
Feel free to shoot holes in it. Like I said, I’m not an engine builder or promoter so I’m sure there are obvious pitfalls that I’m unaware of.

[hanginitout]

Throw a ittle weight diff. in there and maybe a tire rule and sounds good....and if you want to try abig show at the home track its all good

[SS95]

Most people that race are in the firm belief that the next guy has "more motor" and automatically engage in spend mode rather to evaluate their lap times and look for where they are lacking . So often another driver with a known skill set makes the car seem like a rocket ship and makes the next guy feel like they need "more motor" ... Nearest "crate" track to me is over 3 hours away and that makes me not look in that direction.
I really like what Matt49 is trying to get across ... it would be nice and relatively simple to tech and should keep "daddy warbucks" racers within the rules . Someone is always be willing to spend more ...

[RaceTechKs]

Guys my question is this, We have heard for years that these cars Lates and Mods dont need the power they produce today because they cant hook it up anyway. So here comes the CRATE Engines with less power and now with aluminum heads and blocks, now with the less power they should work very well or so we have told ourselves,,,,,,,,Then if this is the answer.....Why are we giving them all the breaks that we are...If less power is going to hook them up better, how come we dont let them stand on the same track with the open type engines..??

[Matt49]

I really like what Matt49 is trying to get across ... it would be nice and relatively simple to tech and should keep "daddy warbucks" racers within the rules . Someone is always be willing to spend more ...

And this is exactly my point. My proposed rules package doesn't keep a guy from going out and spending $10,000 on head work but it sure makes it a big waste of money. Smart racers are the winners with a rules package like this IMO. Both at the finish line and at the bank account.

[Matt49]

@RaceTechKs
Slick track conditions do a lot to level the playing field but it doesn't mean motor doesn't matter. With an equally good setup on two cars, the one with the most power (and a driver that knows how to use it) is going to win.
I know it's unique to us, but here in Indiana, crates don't get any kind of breaks when running with opens. Other than a 100 pound weight break but that is given to ANY steel block motor so it's not a crate thing. I'm pretty sure about every track in the country gives a weight break to a steel block and I know most sanctioning bodies do also.

[hanginitout]

Matt49 think you have nailed it. But the big thing is how do we sell it?

[Matt49]

Matt49 think you have nailed it. But the big thing is how do we sell it?

Not sure about where you are but around here (Indiana) the big problem is that the last thing most tracks need is more classes.
To sell anything, you have to be able to market the idea and some that starts with branding. What would you even call a class like this? To me the term "limited late model" has he connotation of mixed-bag rules that differ from track to track.
When I figure out how to better package my ideas, I'm going to pitch it to engine builders first; ask them to shoot holes in my theories of "tech-ability" and keeping cost down. If there is receptivity there, I would continue the process by discussing it with promoters. Again, most classes run too many classes as it is and even the promoters will acknowledge that. Adding another class is not an appealing concept. But taking away a class is not an idea most people want to touch either.
One idea on this would be to run this class (whatever it's called) in conjunction with crates with a weight break for the crates (i.e. run them together). But then you're back to having to tech the crates to maintain integrity. Maybe this is a transitional stage to phase out the crates entirely.
You would have to get buy-in from a few tracks/promoters in an area and have them run the class one or two times a month but never opposing one another. I think it could build from there and potentially displace the crate class altogether. One other cost saving mechanism (as mentioned) would be a hard tire rule. Just tech with duro before race...if guys want to kill themselves messing with chemicals let them do it. I'm not into nanny-nation.
This almost starts to sound like a regional series the more I think about it but let me be clear that isn't at all what I'm personally interested in. Despite the fact that I do it myself, I hate points racing. So I would not condone turning something like this into a series. I thinks "series" racing alienates most weekend warriors that might want to take a week off to work some extra hours making real money, spend time with their family, etc. It also alienates guys that might want to go hit up some bigger shows in a larger geographic area. I just don't like points racing and I'll leave it at that.
Thanks for some of the feedback on this, guys. Up until posting this, I had only shared the idea with one person and specifically asked them not to talk about it for fear of it sounding simplistic and by association kind of stupid. I guess now that it's on 4m, I've really let the cat out of the bag.
But seriously imagine if something like this really took off and spread all over the late model land scape. Assuming you believe late model racing is dying (not saying it is but that's the overwhelming opinion), could something like this bring it back to life???

[hanginitout]

The favor of this is, that we bring some of the money back to local motor builders..And GM can't keep adding updates to sell new ones......

[brashley]

ENGINEMaximum 362 cubic inch.OEM or aftermarket blocks. Aftermarket blocks must have standard cam location and OEM cam journal size. Max bore is 4.070".Crank must be minimum 48 lbs. including crank gear. 3.480" stroke crankshaft ONLY with rod journal minimum diameter of 2.100". Cranks may be turned up to .030" for crank repair.Rods must be steel with maximum 6.000" length. I-Beam stock replacement type rods only. No H-Beams or fully machined I-Beam rods allowed.Flat top pistons only with 927" minimum wrist pin diameter. Must have rings in minimum 3 grooves.Small block Chevy aftermarket standard runner steel heads must be 23 degree design heads. No raised runner heads. No aluminum heads. No porting, polishing, shot blasting, or acid etching allowed. No exceptions. Heads must be 23 degrees with 1/2 degree tolerance. May be flat cut. No angle cutting allowed.OEM heads may be ported and angle cut.Steel valves only. Maximum 2.020" intake, 1.600" exhaust. 11/32" minimum stem diameter.1.5 ratio rocker arms only. Stud girdles allowed. No shaft mount rockers.Flat tappet cams only. No ceramic lifters.Stock firing order cams only..842" lifter bore size only.No raised cams , O.E.M. journal size only.No external oil pumps.No aluminum oil pans.Block mount fuel pumps only.No rear mount pumps.Must use Edelbrock #7101 dual plane intake only with no modifications. May use Edelbrock #7116 intake for Vortec heads.One 4150 series carburetor only.No carburetor spacer allowed.HEI style distributors only. Coil must mount on distributor.No MSD boxes allowed.NoTri-Y headers.NO TITANIUM PARTS ANYWHERE!These rules are used in a "sportsman late model" class at a local track here in east Tennessee and the class consistently has more sportsman cars than limited late models even with the pay being 1/3. I feel like it could be the biggest class around here if more tracks would get on board and create a similar set of rules. There are 3 tracks in the area that have a sportsman type class but the rules are structured so differently that a car can not go from one track to another to race. I think that plus extremely low pay keeps several other cars from running in the class. Matt49 I think 604 crates could run in this class without any issue. Certain aspects of this rule set could be modified to allow more people the opportunity to race what they have without too much of a negative affect.

[Matt49]

ENGINEMaximum 362 cubic inch.OEM or aftermarket blocks. Aftermarket blocks must have standard cam location and OEM cam journal size. Max bore is 4.070".Crank must be minimum 48 lbs. including crank gear. 3.480" stroke crankshaft ONLY with rod journal minimum diameter of 2.100". Cranks may be turned up to .030" for crank repair.Rods must be steel with maximum 6.000" length. I-Beam stock replacement type rods only. No H-Beams or fully machined I-Beam rods allowed.Flat top pistons only with 927" minimum wrist pin diameter. Must have rings in minimum 3 grooves.Small block Chevy aftermarket standard runner steel heads must be 23 degree design heads. No raised runner heads. No aluminum heads. No porting, polishing, shot blasting, or acid etching allowed. No exceptions. Heads must be 23 degrees with 1/2 degree tolerance. May be flat cut. No angle cutting allowed.OEM heads may be ported and angle cut.Steel valves only. Maximum 2.020" intake, 1.600" exhaust. 11/32" minimum stem diameter.1.5 ratio rocker arms only. Stud girdles allowed. No shaft mount rockers.Flat tappet cams only. No ceramic lifters.Stock firing order cams only..842" lifter bore size only.No raised cams , O.E.M. journal size only.No external oil pumps.No aluminum oil pans.Block mount fuel pumps only.No rear mount pumps.Must use Edelbrock #7101 dual plane intake only with no modifications. May use Edelbrock #7116 intake for Vortec heads.One 4150 series carburetor only.No carburetor spacer allowed.HEI style distributors only. Coil must mount on distributor.No MSD boxes allowed.NoTri-Y headers.NO TITANIUM PARTS ANYWHERE!These rules are used in a "sportsman late model" class at a local track here in east Tennessee and the class consistently has more sportsman cars than limited late models even with the pay being 1/3. I feel like it could be the biggest class around here if more tracks would get on board and create a similar set of rules. There are 3 tracks in the area that have a sportsman type class but the rules are structured so differently that a car can not go from one track to another to race. I think that plus extremely low pay keeps several other cars from running in the class. Matt49 I think 604 crates could run in this class without any issue. Certain aspects of this rule set could be modified to allow more people the opportunity to race what they have without too much of a negative affect.

Not easy to tech.

[zeke23z]

While we're back on this topic, I want to add my two cents on an idea for a "limited" late model class that I think would work. By "would work" I mean that it would keep cost down AND be relatively easy to tech.
First, let me say this:
I am a racer
I do race crates today
I cannot afford to race an open late model every week
I am not an engine builder
I am not a promoter
I do not claim to have all the answers but I have this idea:
The engine rules would be pretty simple:
1) Steel block based on American-made small block design
2) Wet sump oiling system
3) 23 degree heads
4) Single 4-barrel carburetor with a size limit
5) HEI distributor (no MSD boxes or external coils)

Rule 1 is easy to tech and enforce.
Rule 1 keeps cost down as steel blocks are much cheaper and it allows you to take advantage of the weight break provided to steel blocks when running with open competition motors (most track and sanction rules I've seen)

Rule 2 is easy to tech and enforce.
Rule 2 indirectly keeps costs down by making durability a bigger concern than raw power when building your engine

Rule 3 SHOULD be easy to tech and enforce but I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there that will be able to change the valve angles and make it appear 23 from the outside. But we could still come up with an easy way to enforce this.
Rule 3 keeps costs down because 23 degree stuff is a dime a dozen compared to the more exotic heads

Rule 4 I think should be easy to tech with some sort of no-go gauge
Rule 4 indirectly keeps costs down. No point in having a 434 cube motor if you can’t get enough air to it to run past 7000 RMPs. Make the limit like 850 CFM and see where that gets us.

Rule 5 should be easy to enforce also
Rule 5 indirectly keeps costs down. No point in having a huge high compression motor if you can’t get enough spark to it to keep it running.

My guess is that this rules package would create a class of 650-700 HP late models that would keep costs down, be competitive, and provide the fans with what they are looking for.
Feel free to shoot holes in it. Like I said, I’m not an engine builder or promoter so I’m sure there are obvious pitfalls that I’m unaware of.

www.ulmaracing.com

[zeroracing]

Ulma is not a bad series, but you can build an open motor for the same cost as a ulma 23 degree one.

I would like to see a ULMA hybrid type of rules . Weight breaks don't help much on all steel motors, you can't get the thing down in weight. Here are my proposed rules, engine wise:

Steel block/head 23 degree wet sump: 2350 weight with 10" setback, 12" spoiler
Steel block/aluminum head 23 degree wet sump: 2350 weight 8" setback, 12" spoiler
Steel block/open head dry sump: 2450 lbs, 6" setback 8" spoiler
Full open aluminum: 2450 lbs, 6" setback, 8" spoiler with 50lbs infront of midplate. 25 per side.

Tech takes a magnet and a tape measure.

[brad hibbard]

I have been watching and trying not to chime in because i am sure that I have a bias toward the crate

but I have to ask this

what would it cost to build a dominant engine package using any of your above rules
Steel block---period
23 degree steel head---period
wet sump---period
HEI ignition---period

using the above as your rules would it be possible to spend $15 thousand on an engine?----
answer---in a snap

not sure where the thought process comes from on an HEI limiting how much power can be made---------
HEI is definitly not our choice of ignition but I have seen it successfully used in big power applications including blown alcohol engines ---nitrous stuff and high compression units----with todays technology I sure wouldnt say that an HEI will keep you from making power

JMO----I am a crate guy

Brad

[zeroracing]

Yes you can spend 15k easy. But it would be a class that open and limited cars could run to boost car counts.

The issue with crates is two fold. The first is yes they are affordable to buy upfront, but many spend a decent amount in majic bolt ons/rebuilds for hopefully more power. So they end up spending more than sticker price. Cars with money tend to spend more on drivetrain and other LW or low drag components. In the end many end up with just as much in their car only move money from motor a to rearend b... The second and more pressing issue with crates is tech and cheating. Not all cheat, but some do. Locally the ulma has caught at least one a few years back that had been racing, running good, came to ulma track and won, then was dq'd for a motor issue. Don't know details and two sides to each story but this is racing and people will cheat if they can. That said some tracks have great tech guys and will keep people honest, many have a strong lack of power between the ears, like one that stated "I can tell if its a stroker by looking at the rods"... To keep crates honest will take a dedicated tech man, which many of us have limited faith in. The rules proposed above make tech last a few minutes and does not tear into the motor, so little brain power involved. Some guys will angle mill but you could gauge it or just allow them and go on...

I would not be opposed to adding a weight break for crates, but tech becomes an issue as well as to make a steel block take advantage of weight break can take $$$ to get front lightened up.

Guys will spend 15,000 on a motor or $7500 on a crate and. $7500 in other places, racers will spend it if they got it.

If you have a way to quick tech a crate for legality that we can trust then you can satisfy the quick tech while giving strong validity to a crate weight break.

[Matt49]

I have been watching and trying not to chime in because i am sure that I have a bias toward the crate

but I have to ask this

what would it cost to build a dominant engine package using any of your above rules
Steel block---period
23 degree steel head---period
wet sump---period
HEI ignition---period

using the above as your rules would it be possible to spend $15 thousand on an engine?----
answer---in a snap

not sure where the thought process comes from on an HEI limiting how much power can be made---------
HEI is definitly not our choice of ignition but I have seen it successfully used in big power applications including blown alcohol engines ---nitrous stuff and high compression units----with todays technology I sure wouldnt say that an HEI will keep you from making power

JMO----I am a crate guy

Brad

Thanks for the feedback, Brad. Glad an engine builder chimed in. It was really just an idea I had. Maybe I'm naive but I don't think the cheating is bad around here. The drivers that are up front would be up front if they had a 5HP Briggs in their cars.
But I can see where people get paranoid about the tech because it isn't easy to tech and, like you said, takes quite a bit of dedication. A rules package like the one I threw together would be VERY easy to tech and if it keeps engine cost to $15K, that's far better than what some guys are spending on their open motors.
With that said, how much RELIABLE power do you think could be made with such a rules package while keeping the price tag around $10K?

Don't worry, we'll be doing the crate thing for some time to come in this area as long as we have the cars and it stays legit. I'm just thinking in terms of what would be an affordable alternative if there wasn't crate racing. Almost all "limited late model" rules packages are so complex and difficult to tech that they might as well not have the rules at all in my opinion. Everybody is probably cheating on something. Simple is good.

[kidrock]

gotta tech them for it to survive

it doesn't have to be tear down tech or anything extreme-----there are ways of knowing whether anyone has been inside without ripping the engine into pieces in a tech shed

we do a couple dozen tech clinics a year for race track and sanctioning personel to educate them on ways of teching crate engines without a tear down

but they still have to do it and that seems to be the snag-----alot of tracks don't even take the hood off of the winning car

be glad to help with anyone that wants help

JMO

Brad

Brad, you are so right. There is a lot of cheating going on with the class right now at those tracks that do not tech these cars. My brother sold his car today and that was one of the reasons he sold it.