Shocks and spring on a pierce

[emodracer]

What are people running on their pierce cars and having the most success with. I have it set up 4bar/z link. Will be running on a 3/8 high banked track and is generally drying out during heat races. Nice smooth slick track. Buying new shocks and springs for this year and wanting to know whats the best.

[RaceMentally]

700. 650200 200175Heavy tracks we run 175 in lr We also run shorter upper bar on the left rear and 2" longer rr upper and over 20* strapped.

[bob75]

springs sound good but can you explain to me your bar lengths and what they do , sounds like you are trying to index the left rear, and take out the indexing on the right rear, what bar lenghts do you run on the rear then , and is this a spring behind car or clamped up,

[anissa5]

Also what angle do you run in the short left upper

[BlackMagic]

Bob75, I agree that the shorter left top bar will increase rebound indexing into the spring, but i believe the longer right top link will increase compression indexing into the spring not decrease it.

[anissa5]

Most pierce car with right rear z-linked have the spring on top of rearend

[RaceMentally]

The short upper we do for indexing purposes yes. We also change the mounting location on spring behind. we generally run either 15*, 20*, or 25* inward to centerline of chassis with adjustable mount to compensate fo LU bar length changes. The rr I set up on cars we run more RU angle and control the hike. Generally it makes the car have a constant in motion bite and doesn't allow spring pressure of bar angle affect that tire(youre locking in the amount of drive you limit to this tire). RU 18-22 dry 22-26 tacky. We do not change hike on LU unless we change rf spring and if we change rf spring to a lighter rate we usually do every 100lbs 3/4" longer LU. But genrally like most do 45* is a happy medium or a 4'-4 3/4" drop.Put up some pics of you car underneath.

[anissa5]

When you do soften the rf I am guessing that in the slick then you add 3/4 long upper bar do you take indexing out

[RaceMentally]

When you do soften the rf I am guessing that in the slick then you add 3/4 long upper bar do you take indexing out

We have to soften the rf in order to transfer weight to the right side of the car and to free it up in the rear. We only do this because we've had to tighten the rear of the car up. For the length change we usually relocate closer towards the axle tube on a multi hole bird cage. When we move the lr slider inward we do this to keep a certain load on spring during hike without changing percentages unloaded. On another note how many laps do you all believe you can run in the dry before you start slowing? We've tested most tires and the results are pretty astonishing. For example we found our 3000 lb sportsman pro stocks with 3 link suspension can run identical times that of a 4 bar modified at 2400-2450 on the same tire and also fall off time wise the same time. Now I will say none of our modifieds weigh less than 2600 lbs...

[BlackMagic]

Can you Explain to me how softening the rf spring transfers more weight and frees your car up? To me this sounds physically impossible? Here is my thoughts on that.... Yes putting a softer spring in the right front will make the car "dive more" on that corner, but that does not mean it is transferring more weight.... If you're wanting to physically transfer more weight to the rf corner you would need to install a heavier rate spring. A stiffer rf spring is going to free you up on entry and tighten your exit not a softer spring.... Here is my reasoning on that matter... As you enter the corner weight is transferred from the rear of the car to the front, and from the left side to the right... Keep in mind the stiffer spring gets the weight.... So as we enter the corner with our now stiffer rf spring more weight is going to transfer off of the rr to the rf, and more weight from the LF to the rf than the LR to rr, than it would have with the previously softer rf spring. In doing this it leaves more weight on the LR corner making the car freer on entry and tighter off the corner. Let's go to the extreme on this and say you went with the softest rf spring ever "no spring at all" the car sure would roll over on the rf a lot..... But there would be no weight on that corner to drive the tire into the track right? I don't know everything but this is just my understanding of race car dynamics and my reasoning behind it, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and please explain to me how and why, knowledge is something I crave for!

[RaceMentally]

Can you Explain to me how softening the rf spring transfers more weight and frees your car up? To me this sounds physically impossible? Here is my thoughts on that.... Yes putting a softer spring in the right front will make the car "dive more" on that corner, but that does not mean it is transferring more weight.... If you're wanting to physically transfer more weight to the rf corner you would need to install a heavier rate spring. A stiffer rf spring is going to free you up on entry and tighten your exit not a softer spring.... Here is my reasoning on that matter... As you enter the corner weight is transferred from the rear of the car to the front, and from the left side to the right... Keep in mind the stiffer spring gets the weight.... So as we enter the corner with our now stiffer rf spring more weight is going to transfer off of the rr to the rf, and more weight from the LF to the rf than the LR to rr, than it would have with the previously softer rf spring. In doing this it leaves more weight on the LR corner making the car freer on entry and tighter off the corner. Let's go to the extreme on this and say you went with the softest rf spring ever "no spring at all" the car sure would roll over on the rf a lot..... But there would be no weight on that corner to drive the tire into the track right? I don't know everything but this is just my understanding of race car dynamics and my reasoning behind it, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and please explain to me how and why, knowledge is something I crave for!

So a lighter rf spring would not unload the lr more?

[BlackMagic]

Explain to me why you think it does. In the majority of your posts you say you want to get discussions going and be open minded. This is me being open minded and seeking discussion. I provided more than enough information to explain my reasoning as to why I think you are wrong about weight transfer. Better yet it was more about why I think I am right. If I am in the wrong please explain to me how and why, so that I can further my knowledge and better my race program if it is me that is wrong here... I'm ready to learn please explain yourself

[RaceMentally]

Explain to me why you think it does. In the majority of your posts you say you want to get discussions going and be open minded. This is me being open minded and seeking discussion. I provided more than enough information to explain my reasoning as to why I think you are wrong about weight transfer. Better yet it was more about why I think I am right. If I am in the wrong please explain to me how and why, so that I can further my knowledge and better my race program if it is me that is wrong here... I'm ready to learn please explain yourself

Do you see that there is more weight on the lr or less when placing a lighter spring into the rf?

[BlackMagic]

I've already answered that question in my previous posts, but I'll break it down again in another way. If you're on the scales and you remove a #700 spring and replace it with a #600 on the rf and to not make any other adjustments it's going to de-wedge the car, therefore making the LR corner lighter. This will tighten entry off throttle and fee up exit handling.

[RaceMentally]

I've already answered that question in my previous posts, but I'll break it down again in another way. If you're on the scales and you remove a #700 spring and replace it with a #600 on the rf and to not make any other adjustments it's going to de-wedge the car, therefore making the LR corner lighter. This will tighten entry off throttle and fee up exit handling.

so reducing lr bite will tighten entry?

[BlackMagic]

Once again... Already answered that.... If you enter off the throttle then yes your entry will be tighter with less wedge.... I've yet to see an explanation from you on your weight distribution theories!? You just keep asking the same questions in different ways... Questions I've already addressed... I'm ready to hear your debate.... Not your fog of repetitive manor questions. If you are as wise as you portray yourself to be... This should be a simple subject for you to grasp.... And if I am wrong here please explain why. I like to learn

[Dirtrunner35]

It all depends on how people think a car is tight. too much cross or too stiff of springs in the right front will make a tight car, a lower right front will make the left front get more weight and help turn the car. A lower right front spring will make less cross dynamically , will make the front tighter and rear looser.

[RaceMentally]

It all depends on how people think a car is tight. too much cross or too stiff of springs in the right front will make a tight car, a lower right front will make the left front get more weight and help turn the car. A lower right front spring will make less cross dynamically , will make the front tighter and rear looser.

This is exactly right. Now the reason I ask questions is because it get YOU more involved. The classes I hold if I only talked at you and did not ask YOU to answer a question you would not be involved and learn as well. So I also have the drivers, crew members, and others try to answer as many questions themselves. This is a trick in the teaching world to have a student adapt and learn making it more fun and more involved. Now the big change I have seen in the dirt track world hit us in the mid 2000s. We had a birdcage epidemic that hit everyone and all were jumping on board by 2007-2008. The problem most were having is the spring packages used. Most have had a heavy rf spring in the car since the beginning of dirt track racing. This rf spring made the car act like a pivot point on the chassis instead of a turning tire. A turning tire is a tire that actually controls where the car is going to go and not a tire to just plant into the ground and pivot off of. Reason this trend was big was because it trickled down from asphalt drivers. This heavy rf set works but strictly on point and shoot track that are tacky and or dry. Tacky you will be vey fast and dry you must watch rr tire pressure due to the 50 degree change we usually se differnet from lr. the growth of 50 degrees is at least 5 more psi and this will start causing a loose condition over time. I see many of these drivers with this set up and at lap 5-6 is when the air expansion in tire reaches a point in which it ballons. Most cars after 5-6 laps lose a minimum of .500 second immediately. I went into a few details as to what a heavy rf will do. Ultimately we want the lightest possible spring on the cars for strictly ballast weight transfer. A scale says what a car is at a stand still. Once put into motion we need more weight of the car to transfer to the right side of chassis. This is where a chassis dyno has shown percentages and what the car is doing. Much like the NASCAR chassis dyno you've seen we do this on dirt as well. It works diffently though but shows percentages on the car at corner entry, hike, mid corner, and exit. Going back to the heavy rf spring youll notice the other trend was to have MORE rear brake to crutch the car and turn it therefore sliding the rear tires more and causing an unpredictable situation and after 3-5 laps you will feel the car coming out from under you. Weight in motion is what most have not understood and should start understanding more. I could go on for pages on this subject. In fact 3 day classes are not enough because of the amount of information you need to take in. Now as for a longer lr bar we do this to compensate for the softer rf spring. We compress the rf spring more by having an overall higher hike to achieve the cross desired. This is where a chassis not designed for a lighter spring can be spotted. You simply look at mounting of the lr spring slider. If it isn't set in the chassis correct the car will be unloading the spring because you cannot index it properly lets say with a 17" long upper left bar. For example if you had a 700 rf spring youre going to compress it lets say 3" in the car. Well ever 1/16th of an inch compressed is 43.75 lbs while a 550 spring is 34.37 pound for every 1/16th inch traveled. In a classroom I have a model to show this affect and actual weight placed onto each tire. You can make a scale say what you want but in motion is it what you want?..

[stock car driver]

What 3 day class do you teach? I am planning to attend one and I want to ensure I don't go to yours, you type in circles but say nothing for the most part.

[RaceMentally]

What 3 day class do you teach? I am planning to attend one and I want to ensure I don't go to yours, you type in circles but say nothing for the most part.

Please post up a picture of the rear of your car or front.