Shock Tuning Question for the Experts

[RacerX10]

I'm about to have my first set of DA shocks (Integra IDA), always ran straight valve stuff before.

My question is this : can you tune a car from a "heavy" all the way to a dry slick setup just in shock adjustments ? I guess specifically I'm wondering if it's still necessary to change springs, etc on a typical race night when you have the shock tuning available.

So, just to restate it, can you take a "average" (chassis builder recommended) set of springs, let's say
500LF 450RF 250LR 225RR to start with, and just in shock adjustments / bar angles / panhard bar changes tune it from heavy to dry slick over the course of a night ?

Just trying to find out what are reasonable expectations.

Thanks !

[let-r-eat]

I would expect to see some good tech coming out of a thread like this.My short answer is "NO". Mainly due to the later G force being less on the slick track. You can't transfer as much on the slick track and the shock is only controlling the spring rates you have. So a heavier spring that's needed on the tacky fast racetrack is not appropriate on the slower slick racetrack and this can't be overcome with any shock. Lowering the compression or stiffening the compression on the right front with the stiffer spring installed for the tacky will never obtain the travel necessary for the slicker race track.Flame away?

[RacerX10]

No flames from here, sounds pretty reasonable to me. Wonder if somebody will disagree ?

[LM14]

A shock is only a timing device for the spring/suspension action. You should change springs to suit the conditions and shocks to fine tune that setup.

The shock is not meant to replace the proper spring setup.

JMO,
SPark

[hucktyson]

The only one who can answer that question is the legendary Lockheed Martin rocket propulsion engineer Brian Gray !! Results speak for themselves and if you have set up questions there's only 1 man to ask !! Lol if you don't believe me just ask him and I'm sure he will tell you .

[hpmaster]

A shock is only a timing device for the spring/suspension action. You should change springs to suit the conditions and shocks to fine tune that setup.

The shock is not meant to replace the proper spring setup.

JMO,
SPark

Good post...... maybe a great post....... the best shocks in the world are not going to make up for wrong springs.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I keep spring changes to an absolute minimum. IMO, you can get away with changing none or 1 spring and stay good from tacky to slick on the same track.

Our cars are very adjustable and there are plenty of ways to keep handling consistent.

[Brian Gray]

The answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. Depending on how the shock was built it is going to have a range for the lower speed rates and the higher speed rates. The adjustments are usually only within a few hundred pounds. If your high speed control is within the range needed on your slick setup for a heavy track you can control the wheels in the tack but usually your going to have specific low speed controls you won't be able to adjust out of. Everything is always a give and take. People get mad at me for promoting here but it sounds like you might need more explanation on what the shock does . most cases you will not have enough adjustment or will be valved out to one side or the other. Just because your shock is adjustable doesn't mean it will work in everything. It needs to be taylored to what your car needs. There is no one size fits all. I can help if you'd like more info.

[Brian Gray]

This relates to shocks . Mr park is exactly right in his post.

[hpmaster]

I keep spring changes to an absolute minimum. IMO, you can get away with changing none or 1 spring and stay good from tacky to slick on the same track.

Our cars are very adjustable and there are plenty of ways to keep handling consistent.

I agree once a car has the proper springs under it the number of spring changes are few. What I have seen is too many people spend more time and money on shocks when they are in need of proper springs.

[zeroracing]

If your going to drop the coin on new IDA shocks, get with a true shock guy, spend about the same amount of money or a little more and get the info to tune your car with. No sense in spending all that $ and getting limited info.

[Matt49]

My opinion:
For a particular track size/banking/configuration (regardless of conditions) a single set of springs should provide a balanced setup 95% of the time. Tune with bars and shocks from there.
Personally, I think the mindset of "shocks are only for fine tuning" is old (and flawed) thinking. There is huge adjustability in today's shocks and you can tune a car from heavy to slick with shocks alone if you know what you're doing.
There are many things that used to be "fundamental" setup logic that are no longer AS applicable today. Many concepts (e.g. heavy spring gets the weight) are overshadowed by other things today. 20 years ago, there wasn't much rear steer, there wasn't much dynamic wedge due to bar loading, and there certainly wasn't as much front roll center migration. "Heavy spring gets the weight" still applies but there are other things going on that more than cancel out the effects. Example, SOFTER RF helps cars of today turn into the corner (for many reasons). This is the opposite of what was true 20 years ago when the spring rate itself was the main contributing factor to grip. Stiffer LR used to create more drive...the opposite is true today. These are just two examples.

[D.E.K.]

Go to brian daugherty at port city he is awesome with info and the shocks r awesome we dont have to change anything from heats to feature.

[hpmaster]

My opinion:
For a particular track size/banking/configuration (regardless of conditions) a single set of springs should provide a balanced setup 95% of the time. Tune with bars and shocks from there.
Personally, I think the mindset of "shocks are only for fine tuning" is old (and flawed) thinking. There is huge adjustability in today's shocks and you can tune a car from heavy to slick with shocks alone if you know what you're doing.
There are many things that used to be "fundamental" setup logic that are no longer AS applicable today. Many concepts (e.g. heavy spring gets the weight) are overshadowed by other things today. 20 years ago, there wasn't much rear steer, there wasn't much dynamic wedge due to bar loading, and there certainly wasn't as much front roll center migration. "Heavy spring gets the weight" still applies but there are other things going on that more than cancel out the effects. Example, SOFTER RF helps cars of today turn into the corner (for many reasons). This is the opposite of what was true 20 years ago when the spring rate itself was the main contributing factor to grip. Stiffer LR used to create more drive...the opposite is true today. These are just two examples.

True, but the soft right front spring is only half the truth in many cases. I like many others seem to forget or at least not tell what else we have done to get that right front shock set up to work, with that I shut up.

[Matt49]

True, but the soft right front spring is only half the truth in many cases. I like many others seem to forget or at least not tell what else we have done to get that right front shock set up to work, with that I shut up.

Very true. Here to "help" but not give away information I spent many weeks and many $$$ acquiring.

[hpmaster]

The answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. Depending on how the shock was built it is going to have a range for the lower speed rates and the higher speed rates. The adjustments are usually only within a few hundred pounds. If your high speed control is within the range needed on your slick setup for a heavy track you can control the wheels in the tack but usually your going to have specific low speed controls you won't be able to adjust out of. Everything is always a give and take. People get mad at me for promoting here but it sounds like you might need more explanation on what the shock does . most cases you will not have enough adjustment or will be valved out to one side or the other. Just because your shock is adjustable doesn't mean it will work in everything. It needs to be taylored to what your car needs. There is no one size fits all. I can help if you'd like more info.

Brian seriously, I mean SERIOUSLY? Please read what you wrote and admit this was the longest non answer in 4M history. I avoid reading most your posts for this reason. Rather than hide your self promotions in volumes of nonsense just start out with your quote "most racers are scum bags", most of us can judge from there.

[Brian Gray]

Your living scumbag proof of that comment. Most doesn't mean all douche wagon.

[RacerX10]

I keep spring changes to an absolute minimum. IMO, you can get away with changing none or 1 spring and stay good from tacky to slick on the same track.

Our cars are very adjustable and there are plenty of ways to keep handling consistent.

Maybe an example ? As driver / crew / sponsor / daddy / husband / etc I'm constantly looking for ways to minimize my work load

[RacerX10]

If your going to drop the coin on new IDA shocks, get with a true shock guy, spend about the same amount of money or a little more and get the info to tune your car with. No sense in spending all that $ and getting limited info.

Agreed. However, I have been running on *literally* 16 year old shocks and I've decided it's time to upgrade if I'm going to be worth a (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word). Going to splurge and buy new tires, too. I've never had a new tire on my car

[RacerX10]

Stiffer LR used to create more drive...the opposite is true today. These are just two examples.

Ack .. I'm running on 20 year old info then. Stiffer LR doesn't tighten up exit / create more drive any more ????