Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36
  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    490

    Default

    Matt49, I totally agree this is old thinking. I also agree this thinking came from pre "hiked up" days, but I feel it still holds true.

    Yes, there are many adjustments to choose from. Yes, shocks have changed drastically and you can do things with shocks you didn't dream of a few years ago. I still believe you can mask spring issues with shock adjustments. You may be able to make it work in most instances but it still isn't right. Maybe that spring change would have made your car even faster than the shock change you are using to mask spring issues.

    Once shock technology took off, everyone is shopping for the magic silver bullet shock setup. Who is best, what brand is best, what do I need to buy? You need to buy what you can get serviced, buy from somebody that you can talk to and what is best for driver "A" may not wok for driver "B". Shocks are not the end all of chassis tuning, they are merely a piece of the puzzle.

    We, as racers wanting to go faster every time out, tend to rely too heavily on the latest trend and forget why we needed to improve that piece of the puzzle in the first place. As chassis dynamics changed (improved?) we out-ran the ability of the shocks to control movement IN THE TIME WE NEEDED THOSE MOVEMENTS TO HAPPEN. Movement didn't change, interaction of chassis components changed and we needed to move these events to a time they best suited the chassis needs. It's still 4 tires on dirt, we just have a newer way of planting those tires. If the newest technology is really so great, why have we not seen times drastically faster than they were 10-15 years ago. They are faster, usually, but not really that big of a change. Monkey see, monkey do?

    That's why I still feel springs need to be changed to match the track/driver/HP/ and shocks need to be used to fine tune.

    Now if you are soft enough on the RF to run on bump stops, the shock is totally different. The part that is the same is it still controls the timing of the spring/bump stop event. It's still a part of the tuning puzzle, not a replacement for a proper spring.

    JMO,
    SPark

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3,123

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LM14 View Post
    Matt49, I totally agree this is old thinking. I also agree this thinking came from pre "hiked up" days, but I feel it still holds true.

    Yes, there are many adjustments to choose from. Yes, shocks have changed drastically and you can do things with shocks you didn't dream of a few years ago. I still believe you can mask spring issues with shock adjustments. You may be able to make it work in most instances but it still isn't right. Maybe that spring change would have made your car even faster than the shock change you are using to mask spring issues.

    Once shock technology took off, everyone is shopping for the magic silver bullet shock setup. Who is best, what brand is best, what do I need to buy? You need to buy what you can get serviced, buy from somebody that you can talk to and what is best for driver "A" may not wok for driver "B". Shocks are not the end all of chassis tuning, they are merely a piece of the puzzle.

    We, as racers wanting to go faster every time out, tend to rely too heavily on the latest trend and forget why we needed to improve that piece of the puzzle in the first place. As chassis dynamics changed (improved?) we out-ran the ability of the shocks to control movement IN THE TIME WE NEEDED THOSE MOVEMENTS TO HAPPEN. Movement didn't change, interaction of chassis components changed and we needed to move these events to a time they best suited the chassis needs. It's still 4 tires on dirt, we just have a newer way of planting those tires. If the newest technology is really so great, why have we not seen times drastically faster than they were 10-15 years ago. They are faster, usually, but not really that big of a change. Monkey see, monkey do?

    That's why I still feel springs need to be changed to match the track/driver/HP/ and shocks need to be used to fine tune.

    Now if you are soft enough on the RF to run on bump stops, the shock is totally different. The part that is the same is it still controls the timing of the spring/bump stop event. It's still a part of the tuning puzzle, not a replacement for a proper spring.

    JMO,
    SPark
    I agree with 90% of this. The 10% being the lap times. Shock technology (and today's setups) don't necessarily come through when the track is fast which is when qualifying times and consequently track records are being recorded. But when the track is slick, we're probably running 1 to 2 seconds faster (depending on track size) than we were 30 years ago. The big builders (i.e. technology trend setters) sell cars to the big money teams. The big money teams race for big money on slick tracks. Every builder today is trying to build a car that will turn AND have forward bite in the slickest of conditions. The roll center movements and anti squat are what achieve this and shocks getting the car where it needs to be and holding the car where it needs to be in most cases to make it happen.
    Take the guy running up front at any given track and put a set of straight 4 or 5 valved non adjustable shocks on his car and he'll go to the back when the track isn't fast.

    Good discussion.
    Last edited by Matt49; 05-13-2014 at 04:30 PM. Reason: Corrected...last sentence should have originally read "when the track ISN'T fast"

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    I will render another opinion I have regarding shocks that some will flame away at me for sure.A shock is designed to keep the tire in contact with the racing surface.I find that many compromise this basic principle when they try to control suspension travel with shocks. We see this all the time on rough race tracks.If shocks were all that is needed then they wouldn't even make springs of different rates.
    BUCKLE UP NOW, YA HEAR?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    490

    Default

    Good point on the slick, Matt. There is a drastic difference in the slick from what we raced 25 years ago.

    SPark

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Batavia, OH
    Posts
    13,615

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by let-r-eat View Post
    I will render another opinion I have regarding shocks that some will flame away at me for sure.A shock is designed to keep the tire in contact with the racing surface.I find that many compromise this basic principle when they try to control suspension travel with shocks. We see this all the time on rough race tracks.If shocks were all that is needed then they wouldn't even make springs of different rates.
    Your shock has a spring in it, if mono tube. Your cars mass, the springs, and dampers all have to work together. Technically, if you change spring rate, dampers need adjusted too.
    Modern Day Wedge Racing
    Florence -1

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    571

    Default

    So to go off slightly on a tangent, is everybody running that soft RF spring setup these days ? I've never run under 450 on the RF.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3,123

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by let-r-eat View Post
    I will render another opinion I have regarding shocks that some will flame away at me for sure.A shock is designed to keep the tire in contact with the racing surface.I find that many compromise this basic principle when they try to control suspension travel with shocks. We see this all the time on rough race tracks.If shocks were all that is needed then they wouldn't even make springs of different rates.
    Definitely. This is where the importance of dampening control at different shaft speeds come into play. The low speed dampening (or lack thereof) is what we are using to control car attitude but we still need to understand the high speed dampening characteristics that help us control contact patch integrity. For example, you want the RF to tie down but not "ratchet" down, if that makes sense.
    This can be achieved through proper shimming but quadruple adjustable shocks (rebound and compression in both high and low speed) are coming to DLM racing soon. Integra showed some off at PRI but I don't believe they are available to the public yet.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3,123

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer View Post
    Your shock has a spring in it, if mono tube. Your cars mass, the springs, and dampers all have to work together. Technically, if you change spring rate, dampers need adjusted too.
    Good points. Wheel rate is what's important, not spring rate. The same spring on 5 different cars will produce 5 different wheel rates which is why the shock/spring package that works on a Rocket won't necessarily work on a Masters, Barry Wright, etc.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    I agree with Matt49 and Masterbuilt_Racer, LM14 and others here. You can get yourself all jumbled up with the use of both speed and position sensitive adjustments especially when you're using a shim stack to control high speed and a bleed for low speed adjustment. You still have to be able to determine the threshold for the breakover of the low and high speeds.This stuff isn't plug n play.
    BUCKLE UP NOW, YA HEAR?

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    To elaborate further the rebound sensitivity is where the action is. The spring only stores so much energy and no matter the rebound combination used if the spring doesn't have enough energy stored to create the speed allowable by the damper then you are just losing the ability to keep the contact patch planted. I like these type threads. We could dive into the details or proprietary information but that isn't really necessary because we are discussing principles. Think about what the stacked right front is placing on the demands of the shock? This is why it is so difficult for people to get it to work properly, along with utilizing the spring outside of its design limits. I'll quit there.
    BUCKLE UP NOW, YA HEAR?

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    464

    Default

    RacerX10, that is something that I've been wondering lately myself. I've been running mostly on a 375 RF spring and going to a 350 RF spring when it slicks off. Some of the local racers have told me to go down to a 325 RF spring and see how that feels in the slick. But then some I've talked to haven't went below a 450 RF spring (for a crate). I was following the Rocket book on what it said spring wise, but found that the setup for a Rocket with a crate was different.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    thedirtysouth
    Posts
    4,004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by let-r-eat View Post
    To elaborate further the rebound sensitivity is where the action is. The spring only stores so much energy and no matter the rebound combination used if the spring doesn't have enough energy stored to create the speed allowable by the damper then you are just losing the ability to keep the contact patch planted. I like these type threads. We could dive into the details or proprietary information but that isn't really necessary because we are discussing principles. Think about what the stacked right front is placing on the demands of the shock? This is why it is so difficult for people to get it to work properly, along with utilizing the spring outside of its design limits. I'll quit there.
    just curious, did you mean stacked right front or two stage right front?

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3,123

    Default

    There isn’t any magic in a softer RF spring by itself. It complements the roll center migrations of many of the new front end designs but also needs to be complemented with other setup changes to make it work correctly.
    Back to the “old logic” thing for a second. Old school thinking deduced that a stiffer RF spring would free the car on entry. But new front end design and LR spring behind setup dictates that we change our thinking. A softer RF spring is allowing for more RF suspension travel which does two things: 1) lowers the dynamic roll center and 2) allows the LR to decompress. Lowering the dynamic roll center increases the front end’s side bite which makes the car steer better. Allowing the LR to decompress induces rear steer which lets the car rotate better. So winner winner chicken dinner we’ve got a car that steers more positive on corner entry with a softer RF spring. But the problem with the softer RF spring is that it reduces dynamic wedge which has a negative impact on forward drive coming off the corner. So you have to do something (if not many things) to get drive back in the car or you’ll be slow in the slick coming off the corner. What those things are is beyond this discussion and more than I’m willing to disclose :-)
    Dual stage RF spring setup and RF bump stops are another story and there is a lot more going on there from a shock perspective than meets the eye.
    Last edited by Matt49; 05-14-2014 at 08:24 AM.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    stacked OR 2 stage.Sorry I wasn't more precise in clarification.
    BUCKLE UP NOW, YA HEAR?

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,088

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RacerX10 View Post
    So to go off slightly on a tangent, is everybody running that soft RF spring setup these days ? I've never run under 450 on the RF.
    RacerX10, running older shocks and set ups are not conducive to a softer RF spring alone, alone being the key as stated in the points outlined by matt above. Newer more adjustable shocks when added to a car with help of a competent shock guy will get you on a path that will have you seeing overall benefits that most likely also include your using lighter springs on the RF. As for everybody running a soft RF spring in a word NO. As stated by matt other changes to your car and set up will determine how soft of a RF spring you need and can effectively run for a positive overall performance benefit. With out these other set up and equipment changes it is safe to say if you were to simply add a 300 lb RF spring to your car today you would be completely dissatisfied with the cars performance, as I found out when I first tried a softer RF spring alone. JMHO

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    571

    Default

    Those were some really helpful replies without giving up any trade secrets and I appreciate it very much.

    I thinks for the time being I'll stick with my old school 450 RF setup and experiment with the soft configuration on a test and tune day.

    With my known 450 setup, I'll play around a bit (one change at a time) and learn how these DA shocks affect he car.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0
Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.