Please give me a horsepower estimate.

[00 racin]

350, 40 over, flat top 4 valve relief pistons, stock pink rods, cast 48 lb crank, rpm intake, box stock 1850 holley carb, heads are 882 pretty much stock, 3 angle valve job, zero decked ,all i know about cam is its a 425 lift, (i think its pretty lose to the lr2 Isky cam), 1-5/8 long tube headers, What hp numbers do you think this beast will make? Thanks in advance, also torque numbers to.

[00 racin]

Anyone got a ball park guess? Do u think its around 275 horses?

[Krooser]

Well my initial estimate would be 280-310 depending on whether it's a real dyno # or the old favorite 'butt dyno'…

We had hoped to dyno our new b-mod engine but ran outta time (and $$$)… but we have a similar set-up… maybe lighter pistons and more cam and a 4412 carb. We estimate 360-380 HP… your mileage may vary.

[00 racin]

Thanks for the response Krooser. I was really leaning toward a 602 crate engine, but had a friend who had this new engine for a steal, so i have it for now. Havent raced yet due to an injury in March but will be back in the seat in two weeks. Alot of the locals dont think the crate is a good choice. Nobody is running one yet. Track rules are pretty much what i described in my 1st post, could get better heads (production heads, open chamber) but a limit of 70cc. Only other difference would be we add 100 lbs for a crate engine and can only run the box stock 1850 holley.Should I get the 602 crate engine?

[The deMORRILLizer]

Everyone hates a crate in limited classes like this, that is untill they race one. Mine is 5 years old, never been touched and has three championships

[The deMORRILLizer]

Crates are smooth, drivable, reliable horsepower

[Krooser]

I'd stick with what you have and get your car on the track… I'm no fan of the whole crate deal. Run if you like but I'll stick to what I've been doing for 50 years thank you. Nothing 'wrong' with crate motors… and nothing new.

Back in the 60's the hot modified set-up was to go down the your local Chevy dealer, buy a $700.00 365HP-327 long block, change the cam, install your Hilborn injection set-up and go win a feature! In the late models the Ford guys bought $1,200.00 Holman-Moody 427 side oilers and the MOPAR guys ran 426 Hemi's… all out of a box.

So crates have been around a long time… but MANDATING their use in many classes has not. How does one get a competitive advantage when everyone has the same motor? Cheating… that's how! This ain't t-ball where everyone gets a trophy just for showing up… if you can't beat the guys fair and square with your experience and innovative ideas on how to work the rules what fun is that?

I'm a real low buck guy… I could never afford to buy a crate motor so I'll keep building my old junkyard motors and do the best I can with what I can afford.

Think of this… how popular would little league baseball or youth soccer be if the organizers mandated one kind of ball… from one manufacturer… and that ball cost $200.00 eliminating your kid from using the old ball he had sitting in his room? He would never play baseball or soccer! Let's see what $150.00 bats do for youth sports...

[The deMORRILLizer]

krooser i agree with many of your points but where i live and race in the north east it is much different than what i read about on here, you can buy a 602 crate here and run it and win in every class from pure stocks to late models. we have very limited motor rules around here but we also have much better chassis rules, your imca mods would be out classed chassis wise with our super streets.

[Krooser]

Maybe… but all that 'hi-tech' (which it isn't… nothing on these cars is game changing no matter how we spin it) cost $$$. I don't have it and the only thing big dollar parts do is make the pool of guys who can afford it smaller… just the facts. The size of one's pocketbook should not dictate whether you can participate or not.

How many tracks today have 100 car fields with two classes… we used to every week at many of the tracks I ran. I know this was years ago and things today are different… agreed. But that doesn't mean it right. So many guys around here piss and moan about the low buck four bangers being so slow and unsophisticated. But many youngsters today only care about these kinds of cars… you'll never get 'em in a mod or even a street stock because they have a different mindset than we had when we were young. They want to do a lot of different things not being tied down to one lifestyle… that's ok. But you have to keep the rules simple to make it possible for these guys to get into the seat.

I know two modified and late model drivers who have their cars parked and they are running four bangers at weekly shows and enduros. Good for them… they are racers first… no class snobbery in either of them. They want to race… and they do every week.

The crate motor thing is a deal with the devil… it excludes many in order to favor one… GM. Cheating is rampant… my cam grinder makes a good living grinding 602 and 604 cams. One local engine builder had a crate late model win a BIG race a few years with one of his 'stock' engines. When the sanctioning body said they were tearing down the top four in the main that team surrendered their win (and the $$$) and headed home… the engine guy made up the difference because he didn't want to lose his GM crate rebuilding and certification deal.

We had a 355 built this year for my kid's WISSOTA b-mod effort. Spent $4500.00 complete… core engine… carb to pan… pulleys… dizzy… air cleaner… oil… valve covers… starter… flex plate… stuffed into the car and fired up. It's probably a decent 360-380 HP engine. We have a 'crate test' going on this year… my kid will probably run good against the 604 despite having iron heads… we'll see. If he beats 'em fine… if doesn't too bad. We are big boys and can take a good whipping.

This sport is in trouble in many areas… this season three area dirt tracks closed including mine. I lost my butt last year opening a brand new fairgrounds deal… my rules were geared towards low buck racers. My track champion raced a 80's full size Gran Prix with a 428 engine… a $500.00 car. My 4 cylinder champ won the title driving an '89 Escort with a junkyard mill… more low buck stuff.

The problem I had was convincing drivers you didn't need to have a $5,000.00 engine and a $10,000 car to win… I'm going to try it again next season… several new cars were built this past winter either from scratch or from old cars dragged out from behind the barn. I wanted to open the track but just didn't have the funds to be able to do it in 2013...

We'll see what the future brings...

[The deMORRILLizer]

i wish you all the best in getting a new track going krooser, we need more people like you in this sport who are willing to try and better the sport for everyone

[Krooser]

SCD… I really respect your opinions. I just object to the mandatory deal… sameness doesn't breed competition it just makes things boring.

What's next? Same chassis mfg.? Same spring rates? How about mandatory min/max drivers weight? I know I'm an old guy with an old school attitude but I had the pleasure of racing during some of the best years short tracks ever had… a guy with a LM could race a home built car and run with the best of 'em anywhere in the midwest.

Down south was always another deal… different attitude down there. Guys with $5,000 race cars living in $500 houses… I'm NOT knocking that at all. Went to East Alabama Motor Speedway in the late 70's just to see the show and to talk to the guys who built my Jig-A-Low chassis… bad fast track with tons of cars. Awesome show.

I DO like the crate price compared to open motors… but I have to buy stuff one piece at a time. Just the way it is… could never afford to run even what my kid has.

Saturday night I went to a local LM special on a big 1/2 mile… 38 cars started. Dry slick dusty track just like those four bar cars like. 12 cars finished… the rest were crashed. The winner of the 40 lapper took the lead on lap four… I don't think the top five changed positions despite seven cautions to clear the wrecks. Yea the grandstands were full… this place loves the late models. But it was a boring show unless your favorite driver was up front. The ONLY class that ran their main caution free were the four cylinders… congrats to those guys.

I started drag racing in '64… dirt stuff in '68. Drove, wrenched on and built my own cars and engines, worked as a part time fabricator in the 80's… went on to work at and promote at several asphalt and dirt tracks in Wisconsin until I got fed up with dealing with fair boards and quit in '88.

Got involved in running car shows, swap meets and cruises thru the 90's then jumped back into this short track deal again three years ago. I guess this stuff just doesn't get out of the blood very easily…

Sorry for the rambling...

[stockcar5]

SCD… I really respect your opinions. I just object to the mandatory deal… sameness doesn't breed competition it just makes things boring.

What sanction do you run that crates are mandatory?

[Krooser]

I don't but I'm talking about stuff like crate late models….

[Krooser]

If you are… I used to be the GM there many moons ago… lived there, beside the tavern, for three years. My long term memory still has hangovers!

[Krooser]

SCD…. don't see your name on the pre-entry list for the Clash at the Creek...

[Krooser]

Friday
Hi 69 F
Lo 57 F
Morning rain and t'storms. Mostly cloudy. Still a bit humid.

Saturday
Hi 77 F
Lo 59 F
Partly cloudy. A few afternoon t'storms possible.

Sunday
Hi 80 F
Lo 65 F
Mostly cloudy. Warm and humid. Showers and t'storms likely.

[RW57]

We race in a hobby type class with almost the same rules guys we race against claim they have dyno sheets for their motors with 400 to 410 HP. I say b/s a very reputable engine builder said the same thing somebody's lying or dyno is wrong he has a dyno and says 350 HP is good for one of these type engines low lift cams smog heads 600 Holley they can't breath and turning them to the moon is useless. Our motor is an 1500 $ grenade going on 2 seasons it regularly pulls the dynoed 6500 $ motors off the corners the best part is I can build 4 for what one of theirs cost. We went on e85 this year and really made it a beast the difference it has made is amazing motor was good on gas but now it is really good.