So, SAS-LUCAS-WoO, we're all concerned about $Expensive$ Shock Systems, What about...

[Necrosis]

So what do we do when there are still 50+ guys who don't care to spend big money, because the want the baddest and best? Since SLM's will have been effectively turned into LLM's, do we create a new class that is the epitome of DLM? Maybe we could call it Super-Duper-Late-Models? Half of this argument is nothing but circular logic reinforced by a poor representation and understanding of language. I would think a better answer is to increasingly promote LLM racing, so the guys who can't afford SLM can go somewhere that puts on a good show and make some money. Why can't people play within their means? People will always want to see what SLM was MEANT to be--Very open rules, a place where not everybody can cut it. All these threads reek of an affirmative action mentality, the YMCA everyone gets a trophy ideal. What happens when, hypothetically, there are 3 dominant chassis brands, and the cost doubles on them? Then do you argue for a spec chassis? Where does this stop? This is not Red Ruskie Racing. SLM's epitomize the freedom we enjoy in a capitalist economy, where the best and the brightest rise to the top. That's how is was created, there is no shame in moving down a class. And you know what? If there are only 10 SLM's left, and 200 LLM's at every show, then so be it. That will be the decision of a FREE MARKET, not people thinking they know what is best for everyone else!

[bb14]

Necrosis - you hit it. SLM isn't for everyone. We can't dumb it down. I do agree we have too many series. I also agree with most that we need to think about costs. However I don't think we can do away with the engines. I will not watch a crate race. I have interests in a successful team but I am bored to watch the races. Sorry but that is how I feel.

Weekly needs LLM. Crates or 525 can run that class. I don't agree with handicapping supers. Unfortunately this is an expensive hobby.

I also feel that a spec fuel for crates should be required. I am a distributor and top teams use the moto fuels that approach $30/gallon. If you limit costs then you need to limit the limited classes. Of course local teams will still spend $30k on limited engines just like some are outspending crates.

My point is racing may not be fair. Just like life we are not equal. If you want to be equal run crates and you will see that you will be outspent there too.

[hucktyson]

Half of the people with these opinions on what needs to change don't even race a car !! I races at the world and DTWC this year on either of those tracks if you had 750 hp you had plenty to win on those conditions . The tire selection was limited at both races and they tested for juicing . I have several sets of Ohlins shocks and every piston and shim they make as well as a dyno to tune them . I didnt get outspent I got beat because those guys are better drivers and better able to adjust for changing conditions than I am !! I could have built any shock I wanted to and clearly I picked the wrong ones lol. The world was my second race in a new car and second race of the year, there is no rule anyone can create that gives me a legit opportunity to win those type of races and there's no amount of money you can spend either . You need to race as much as those guys and be as prepared as they are to beat them . I agree with the rules eliminating inverters and any sort of computer controlled suspension devices because at that point you have to have a legitimate engineer involved to have a chance. I got killed at both of those races but nothin about either Experiance made me feel I couldn't go back an do
Better without rule changes . People don't understand if guys can't afford to race now they can't afford it if you save them 10k either

[W2Racing09]

The problem is that you guys are thinking that we are those everyone gets a trophy, must be fair, type of people. That is NOT the argument we are making. I am talking about the longevity of the division, not how fair it is. Nobody is arguing that it costs money, but the amount of money it costs is quickly outpacing the amount of money they are racing for. That means that even the best teams are losing money (please note Scott Bloomquist last year). If that continues to happen that division will die, and that is not what anyone wants.

You are not handicapping SLMs, you are giving concessions (Weight Break and 12" Spoiler) to the 525s. If the SLM cars are still just as fast as they are now, but the 525s are able to keep up then what is the problem?

Calling them LLMs is not the answer to this problem, the answer to this problem would be something that causes Crown Jewel events and the regular $10k show for both series to have healthy car counts. How is letting the 525 cars run in another division going to help that problem?

The counts at many shows are hovering close to a full field, 5 years down the road I think it will be the norm to see races with less than a full field in these series' and that is when tracks will start to pull the plug on them. When that happens the SLM division is really going to be in trouble.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[allWIS1]

I don't know so much that the people that don't race (the fans) are worried so much about drivers going out and beating Owens, Lanigan Bloomquist or whoever as much as we are concerned about them being the only ones left racing. We are not to far away from having only 20 cars at 50,000 to win races.

[W2Racing09]

Half of the people with these opinions on what needs to change don't even race a car !! I races at the world and DTWC this year on either of those tracks if you had 750 hp you had plenty to win on those conditions . The tire selection was limited at both races and they tested for juicing . I have several sets of Ohlins shocks and every piston and shim they make as well as a dyno to tune them . I didnt get outspent I got beat because those guys are better drivers and better able to adjust for changing conditions than I am !! I could have built any shock I wanted to and clearly I picked the wrong ones lol. The world was my second race in a new car and second race of the year, there is no rule anyone can create that gives me a legit opportunity to win those type of races and there's no amount of money you can spend either . You need to race as much as those guys and be as prepared as they are to beat them . I agree with the rules eliminating inverters and any sort of computer controlled suspension devices because at that point you have to have a legitimate engineer involved to have a chance. I got killed at both of those races but nothin about either Experiance made me feel I couldn't go back an do
Better without rule changes . People don't understand if guys can't afford to race now they can't afford it if you save them 10k either

I don't have a car right now, but I do have a degree in economics. I have been on crews for years and years and been on the promoter side of the fence a bunch too.

If you create a more affordable option to get into the division, you will have more cars.
If you have more cars it will make the big races (like the Dream and the World) more profitable for the track.
If the races become more profitable for the track, then that track and other area tracks will be more interested in hosting more big events.
If the tracks are hosting more big events, then there is more money to be won by the drivers.
If there is more money to be won by the drivers then more people will consider getting an SLM.
Refer to step 2.

The current cycle we are on.

If you don't make it more affordable to get into the division you will slowly lose cars as the big money drivers start to retire.
Since it is not affordable many drivers go in other directions to start their racing career.
As a result the car count at big events (like the World and Dream) gets smaller.
As the car count gets smaller so does the crowd (some people's favorite driver can no longer afford to race or has retired with no new drivers to replace them)
When the car and fan count gets smaller the race is less profitable.
When the race is less profitable the track cans the show or lowers the purse (See: Lonestar Speedway $20k Lucas Race, $20k Outlaw Sizzler, $30k Carolina Crown, $20k Winter Freeze, etc.)
When the track cans the show or lowers the purse there is less money to be had by the drivers.
If there is less money to be had by the drivers then more drivers quit because they are going even further into the red.
The Super Late Model as we know it dies
2025 $25,000 to win Late Model Dream for FASTRAK Crate Late Models.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[hucktyson]

There was 120 cars at the world !!! 90 at the DTWC !!! How many do we need ??? With a degree in economics you should see than even if we slashed car expenses by HALF guys would still lose money !!! You can't cut expenses enough and you can't raise ticket prices enough for guys to break even without sponsorship !!! It can't be done!!! Jared landers buying 5 Bloomquist cars and a new hauler every year doesn't matter when your putting one car on the track !!! Either you nail the set up or you lose no matter who you are . People just need to realize this isn't designed to be a job

[W2Racing09]

There was 120 cars at the world !!! 90 at the DTWC !!! How many do we need ??? With a degree in economics you should see than even if we slashed car expenses by HALF guys would still lose money !!! You can't cut expenses enough and you can't raise ticket prices enough for guys to break even without sponsorship !!! It can't be done!!! Jared landers buying 5 Bloomquist cars and a new hauler every year doesn't matter when your putting one car on the track !!! Either you nail the set up or you lose no matter who you are . People just need to realize this isn't designed to be a job

There were 230 cars at Eldora a few years ago. Do you think Eldora is happy to have to eat 48% of its back gate income and keep the purse the same?

I don't think many people expect to make money racing, especially those who run regionally or locally. However, there is a breaking point for many on how much they are willing to lose. I think we are getting dangerously close to that breaking point for many drivers.

[Pennsboro23]

I don't have a car right now, but I do have a degree in economics. I have been on crews for years and years and been on the promoter side of the fence a bunch too.

If you create a more affordable option to get into the division, you will have more cars.
If you have more cars it will make the big races (like the Dream and the World) more profitable for the track.
If the races become more profitable for the track, then that track and other area tracks will be more interested in hosting more big events.
If the tracks are hosting more big events, then there is more money to be won by the drivers.
If there is more money to be won by the drivers then more people will consider getting an SLM.
Refer to step 2.

The current cycle we are on.

If you don't make it more affordable to get into the division you will slowly lose cars as the big money drivers start to retire.
Since it is not affordable many drivers go in other directions to start their racing career.
As a result the car count at big events (like the World and Dream) gets smaller.
As the car count gets smaller so does the crowd (some people's favorite driver can no longer afford to race or has retired with no new drivers to replace them)
When the car and fan count gets smaller the race is less profitable.
When the race is less profitable the track cans the show or lowers the purse (See: Lonestar Speedway $20k Lucas Race, $20k Outlaw Sizzler, $30k Carolina Crown, $20k Winter Freeze, etc.)
When the track cans the show or lowers the purse there is less money to be had by the drivers.
If there is less money to be had by the drivers then more drivers quit because they are going even further into the red.
The Super Late Model as we know it dies
2025 $25,000 to win Late Model Dream for FASTRAK Crate Late Models.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Someone who truly gets it. Great post.

[Pennsboro23]

I can remember the days going to your local track and watching 20-30 late models every weekend. Most local races in my region now have anywhere from 6-18. I won't name the track but last year the late model count was in single digits for 3 straight weeks. The fan attendance started to drop as well, who wants to watch 6 late models race? When your late model car counts drop, so does your general admission sales along with everything else. There are a few different problems that exist these days.

1. The cost of late models
2. Running for the same purses that they ran for 25 years ago.
3. Not enough tracks working with one another.

All of these problems are right in front of our eyes and nobody wants to do a dang thing about any of it. Car counts have dropped all over the country for the most part. If the big boys continue to spend, spend, spend, then local racing will not be able to keep up.

[W2Racing09]

I can remember the days going to your local track and watching 20-30 late models every weekend. Most local races in my region now have anywhere from 6-18. I won't name the track but last year the late model count was in single digits for 3 straight weeks. The fan attendance started to drop as well, who wants to watch 6 late models race? When your late model car counts drop, so does your general admission sales along with everything else. There are a few different problems that exist these days.

1. The cost of late models
2. Running for the same purses that they ran for 25 years ago.
3. Not enough tracks working with one another.

All of these problems are right in front of our eyes and nobody wants to do a dang thing about any of it. Car counts have dropped all over the country for the most part. If the big boys continue to spend, spend, spend, then local racing will not be able to keep up.

Agree, it is unfortunate that such a great division has run into these problems. The cost of the division has done nothing but increase, while fan attendance and thus the sponsorship dollars and purse money have stagnated or decreased due to other entertainment sources. To keep this division and all of short track racing alive there need to be cost control measures or 10 years from now we will be talking about how great the car count was back when there were 6-18 cars.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[bb14]

Agree hucktyson. No matter what you do the normal guy will not outrun the top guys. They are just better. I do agree something should be done but what. NASCAR tried to cut weekly costs once upon a time. They cut out supers and instituted late model stocks. We were told that the engines were half the costs and the cars cheaper. Once the builders got ahold of the rules they had to spend a lot of time testing and blue printing. You had to have one of these engines to win. And the cost equaled a good aluminum headed 358. The car cost also escalated and are now more due to lightweight parts, etc.

Crate rollers can cost more than a super roller. Lightweight brakes and rear ends. Blue printing and lightening trannys and rear ends. Blueprinted engines. Exotic fuels. No matter what we implement to save costs the racers will spend more. It is our nature. BELIEVE ME I DO AGREE WITH YOU GUYS BUT AFTER SPENDING TIME WITH THESE GUYS THERE ISNT ALOT YOU CAN DO. Economics and racing do not mix. We sold our limited stuff and got a crate engine to be more competitive. However we race for less purse weekly, had to spend a lot extra for lightweight parts and exotic fuels. And due to limited HP new tires are now more important than ever.

I would like to see harder tires, just a couple of compounds, and engines that costs less. However the teams with money will still outrun you.

I live in the Carolina's and LM racing is not healthy. Crates have ruined LM racing. Hopefully the LLM comes back but I am not sure if it will due to promoters, series, etc.

[Necrosis]

I actually prefer local steelhead racing. Tell me again why every local track must run supers? Why can't you guys accept having solid fields of LLM's and only SLM traveling series, worst case scenario? It seems much preferable as opposed to diluting supers into LLM's

[bb14]

Good idea. I like LLM but dislike crates. 525s run very well with limiteds in our area. It is a great alternative to a $30k limited engine. A home built engine with top notch machining can be built in your garage for the price a a blueprinted crate and still makes 600 hp and can be competitive. I don't believe anything less than 550 hp belongs in late models. With the right fuel and tuning a 525 can make 575.

I think the promotors should combine the crates and limiteds personally. With the right circumstances a 525 or limited can be competitive in a regional super show. Give them a weight break against supers but do not add weight to supers. Also make them run the same spoiler. Racing should not be ran like our government. We will end up like Nascar.

[W2Racing09]

I actually prefer local steelhead racing. Tell me again why every local track must run supers? Why can't you guys accept having solid fields of LLM's and only SLM traveling series, worst case scenario? It seems much preferable as opposed to diluting supers into LLM's

I don't disagree with this point, but if that becomes the norm what happens to Speedweeks, and the Dream and the World? Where will the cars come from? It will just be a race where 50 cars show up and at that point it wont be profitable for the track to run the race.

Look at the car counts from the World and Dream, now subtract everyone who does not run the Lucas Oil, or WoO series and the handful of drivers who run Outlaw schedules like the Moyers, K Rob and Jeep.

How many cars are left?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[tsand]

you want to get rid of 50,000 engines. a very cheap fix 4 inch spoilers and no side plates. if you can't get the power to the ground why spend money on it.

[Shakey]

the problem with late model racing is owners, we decide how much to spend. Engines, I could choose (and i stress choose) to buy a big horse big cubic inch aluminum motor but I don't. Why? because it's not gonna make a driver out of me. Shocks now that is something that needs to be looked at because that is what gets the big motor or little motor going fast. tires if you buy new cost the same for everyone...........used oh wow i get a free lesson on how to groove those new tires when i choose to buy one and it only cost me $50 or was free because someone didn"t have room in the trailer for it. my point is racing cost, winning cost more than just racing, racing is fun, winning is more fun and it goes on and on. We want late model racing to survive we need to get more people to the track that's the bottom line. You complain about car counts getting smaller. have you looked in the stands? that's where the money is for racing, get the crowds there and the money for racing with the best of everything will follow!!!!

[RayburnBaby]

I'm not sure what area most of you guys are from but in my area trying to cut cost in super late model has cost us limited guys twice as much. Now days because of the people whining an crying about super cost engine builders have past that cost down to the steel head guys. A really good steel head use to cost 10-15 thousand an a super engine was 25-30 thousand. Now because Of the cry babies a steel head cost 20-25 thousand an a good used super engine cost 10-15 thousand. An that's because of the people crying about teams spending lots of money in super late model so those teams started spending that same money in the lower classes. You cry babies need to realize those teams with money are gonna spend it to have the best weather in be in super late model or crates. When crates first came about no one ran canister shocks or had blue printed motors you could have a complete race ready crate for 10k now days it's 10k in shocks a 12k dollar motor a 40k dollar car. An all that is because trying to cut cost in super late model. News flash super late model is the top class in late model racing if you can't afford it don't run it. Don't whine an cry about what it cost hell there's 1,000 of people that wanna run supers but they know they can't afford it. Don't try an penalize the teams that can it will only force the lower divisions to spend more money in the long run.

[hucktyson]

What you non racers are missing is a lot of local guys have ran the same cars and engines for years and slowly over the years up graded their equipment. And some
Of these guys are racing the whole year on 5 or 10k total because that's all they have !!! That's the reality for half of the racers out there . One engine failure or major crash and they are done for the year and the next years budget is already blown so they just get out instead !! You guys all think people have 90k a year to race but they quit because it costs 100k. Guys race till they are dead broke and in debt to their balls before they quit !! No money savings is bringing them back. And the cost of starting from scratch is prohibitive and no matter what rules you impose that won't change. They quit when they can't afford a 4k rebuild at the local engine builder and your answer is for them to spend 12 to get a 525 in the car lol lol lol if they don't have 4k they don't have 12 !!! You don't get it people are broke !!!! And guys who have the money get tired of
BS like the pill draw full inverts you guys love . A guy works 40 hours on his car and spends 50 k and has to start last due to invert and junks his car into turn 1. I know you say that's racing but it's because it's not your money !! Racing is a stupid expensive hobby . Nothing is going to make
It a break even proposition like you guys talk about .

[W2Racing09]

I'm not sure what area most of you guys are from but in my area trying to cut cost in super late model has cost us limited guys twice as much. Now days because of the people whining an crying about super cost engine builders have past that cost down to the steel head guys. A really good steel head use to cost 10-15 thousand an a super engine was 25-30 thousand. Now because Of the cry babies a steel head cost 20-25 thousand an a good used super engine cost 10-15 thousand. An that's because of the people crying about teams spending lots of money in super late model so those teams started spending that same money in the lower classes. You cry babies need to realize those teams with money are gonna spend it to have the best weather in be in super late model or crates. When crates first came about no one ran canister shocks or had blue printed motors you could have a complete race ready crate for 10k now days it's 10k in shocks a 12k dollar motor a 40k dollar car. An all that is because trying to cut cost in super late model. News flash super late model is the top class in late model racing if you can't afford it don't run it. Don't whine an cry about what it cost hell there's 1,000 of people that wanna run supers but they know they can't afford it. Don't try an penalize the teams that can it will only force the lower divisions to spend more money in the long run.

This logic makes absolutely no sense. Since people complained that motors in the SLM class cost a lot, the LLM motors suddenly started costing a lot for no apparent reason? Can you provide some proof of this economic anomaly you are referring to? Furthermore you are saying that a "Good Used" Steel head motor is more than a "Good Used" Super motor?

I think the problem with you "non promoters" (drivers) is that you guys are not the only people who are spending money on this sport. The fans you so often look down on are the only reason that you are able to do what you do, and equally important are the track owners and promoters who have to risk hundreds of thousands of dollars in hopes that enough cars and fans show up to break even or make some money. It used to be a hell of a lot easier than it is now, that is for sure.

I think still that you all are looking at this from the wrong angle, nobody is trying to slow them down, or complain because they are getting beat every week. As someone in this thread said earlier. We are not so much concerned that Bloomquist and Lanigan win every week, we are concerned that they will be the only ones racing in a few years.

Thanks,
Jeff.