How come nobody wants to take the lead on out of control engine expenses? I mean some of these new power plants are approaching $50K and rebuild costs that run as high as a "New" crate CT525. I'm not saying nothing should be done about exotic shocks, but engines seem to be the #800 Gorilla in the room nobody wants to discuss. Don't get me wrong I love horsepower as much as anyone, but this has become obscene.
For me personally, that is a battle I avoid instead of fight. Race where you don't need anything like that to be competitive.
The engine cost problem, is easily cured. It could be cured by just limiting tire contact patch size and down force. If you don't have enough traction to use the big horse engine, only a fool would spend the money for it. Problem solved. Limiting engine size is not a cost cutter. You basically get so much power out of so much air that goes threw a engine, therefore to meet the traction limits of the car, you increase RPMs to increase air flow. It's the high RPMs that cost money to keep engine together. It's the difference of cutting water coming out of a hose. You can stick your finger in the hose or turn the knob that supplies the water. If you know that water is going to wash the seeds out of your garden, you will reach for the knob pretty quick. No complicated rules depending on what you run, no outlawing certain engines, just common sense. Be aware though, the fast guys, will still be the fast guys, because smart goes fast. It may give some a little longer to get smart by making it more affordable.
The engine cost problem, is easily cured. It could be cured by just limiting tire contact patch size and down force. If you don't have enough traction to use the big horse engine, only a fool would spend the money for it. Problem solved. Limiting engine size is not a cost cutter. You basically get so much power out of so much air that goes threw a engine, therefore to meet the traction limits of the car, you increase RPMs to increase air flow. It's the high RPMs that cost money to keep engine together. It's the difference of cutting water coming out of a hose. You can stick your finger in the hose or turn the knob that supplies the water. If you know that water is going to wash the seeds out of your garden, you will reach for the knob pretty quick. No complicated rules depending on what you run, no outlawing certain engines, just common sense. Be aware though, the fast guys, will still be the fast guys, because smart goes fast. It may give some a little longer to get smart by making it more affordable.
Agree 100%. But some folks fool themselves into thinking they need that motor. There are plenty of guys out there going to PRO Power to buy an engine to get their butt handed to them by a backyard 406 on a slick quarter mile track.
i've been reading all the threads some have good points some don't ,my feeling is the shock rule is good very few if not only one have them good time to cut costs. as for the engine rules guys have them and new rules always cost more I also believe tire rules would dictate what you have to spend on horsepower and maybe the ct525 would be competitive. I have won a 100 lap open race on a 1/4 mile track with a 358 steel motor it was all about the tires. use a harder tire and allow cutting and siping to keep used one as a option otherwise you'ed by new everytime.
Lots of good points here on both sides. One thing I am NOT a fan of is trying to limit power with hockey puck tires. I feel this also leads to bad racing, especially on the typical dry slick tracks. Watching cars slip around with no grip on slick tracks doesn't give a good show. I'm not schooled enough to know how much it would help so you guys tell me, but what about mandated rev chips? Bubstr makes a valid point about RPM = $$$. Cut them at 7k or so and does that bring the cost down some and maybe level the field?
Lots of good points here on both sides. One thing I am NOT a fan of is trying to limit power with hockey puck tires. I feel this also leads to bad racing, especially on the typical dry slick tracks. Watching cars slip around with no grip on slick tracks doesn't give a good show. I'm not schooled enough to know how much it would help so you guys tell me, but what about mandated rev chips? Bubstr makes a valid point about RPM = $$$. Cut them at 7k or so and does that bring the cost down some and maybe level the field?
Nope, because then the acceleration on the cam lobes would be ultra-violent, likely increasing cost and parts failures. Also, it would make 1 or 2 engine builders absolutely dominant, as most don't have SpinTron's in their back yard.
The only way to cut cost is to raise the cost! Cost of the tracks. Why should drivers pay pit passes, each driver should get 3 pit passes free! Raise pay outs 1k -1200 is BS. Fans pay the bills the drivers should not! Drivers put the fans in the stands so tracks need to quit sucking money from them! You raise pay outs to 2k a week and you will have more drivers which equals more fans! I do understand there is an insurance issue there with the free pit passes. The motor issue should be addressed, Wide bore motors i do not think are legal (i am not sure but is there a stock small block engine with a 4.5 spread)! ump rules say conventional v8 engines,based on manufactured,factory designed!(condensed version) so are the other than stock degree motors even legal! Shocks or any NEW tech should be brought before a board made up by the sanctioning bodies for approval. Also have a 1 year approval to see if there is a cost to proformance advantage! Tire's should be opened up, any manufacturer that meets specs should be allowed(tire cost wars) EZ mode to check! Racing fuel cost should be addressed as well.Some of the big race series pay pull money some don't. They all should if you come from XX miles away!To keep the sport going the UMP,WoO, and lucas oil to mention a few need to step it up for the drivers and not themselves. JMO don't care if you like it or not, And no I am not just a fan in the stands, second gen driver,crew member, crew chief and car builder and been around the racing since mid 80's. My father was all the above in the 50,s at the track in St. Joe, MO.
Falsfan I'll play along .... How much should tracks raise payout ??? You say free pit passes for everyone and how much should pay outs go up ? And how many fans are at your average short track ? My local track charges 15 for the stands and gets maybe 400 people ..... So you want them to pay out another what 10k ? Divided by 400 people in the stands ? That's 40 a head for a regular show lol do u think you will still get 400 people at 40 a head ?
The only way to cut cost is to raise the cost! Cost of the tracks. Why should drivers pay pit passes, each driver should get 3 pit passes free! Raise pay outs 1k -1200 is BS. Fans pay the bills the drivers should not! Drivers put the fans in the stands so tracks need to quit sucking money from them! You raise pay outs to 2k a week and you will have more drivers which equals more fans! I do understand there is an insurance issue there with the free pit passes. The motor issue should be addressed, Wide bore motors i do not think are legal (i am not sure but is there a stock small block engine with a 4.5 spread)! ump rules say conventional v8 engines,based on manufactured,factory designed!(condensed version) so are the other than stock degree motors even legal! Shocks or any NEW tech should be brought before a board made up by the sanctioning bodies for approval. Also have a 1 year approval to see if there is a cost to proformance advantage! Tire's should be opened up, any manufacturer that meets specs should be allowed(tire cost wars) EZ mode to check! Racing fuel cost should be addressed as well.Some of the big race series pay pull money some don't. They all should if you come from XX miles away!To keep the sport going the UMP,WoO, and lucas oil to mention a few need to step it up for the drivers and not themselves. JMO don't care if you like it or not, And no I am not just a fan in the stands, second gen driver,crew member, crew chief and car builder and been around the racing since mid 80's. My father was all the above in the 50,s at the track in St. Joe, MO.
This post is just... I don't even know where to start.
Where is the money coming from? You understand that a track is a business... they are attempting to make money. I don't know what your local track is like but they must have 4k - 5k fans weekly to support giving three free pit passes to the drivers and paying what.. $3k weekly?
Say you are a spectacular track getting some of the best fan counts in the country every week at $10 a head. 2500 fans is $25,000 dollars.
The purse for just the late models at $3k to win is about $15,000 or so. So you have already lost well over half of your income. On top of that you are probably paying 2 or 3 support divisions, say Modifieds at $1k to win and Street Stocks at $500 to win. There goes another $7000 or so. We now have $3000 left. Lets pay the light bill, insurance bill, hire help, etc. now we are looking at being in the hole $500 or more, that is assuming you own the track and don't have a lease payment.
But wait, we have our saving grace... the concession stands we are making what $5k - $10k just in food, lets say $8k. Lets pay our help for the evening (12 employees, $10/hr about $1k) now we have $7k. Now lets pay for the food from Sysco or some other food supplier, about $3k. Now we have $4k left. With that $4k we need to pay for advertising, improvements, etc.
Don't forget about taxes.
Obviously these numbers are not exact but there is a lot to keep track of, most tracks are not getting anywhere near 2500 people. If they are then they still are not making buckets of cash either way. The average tracks is having to work off of 1000-1500 fans. So they need to make up the difference in pit passes.
If you have figured out another way to do things I'm sure there are about 800 tracks in the country that would love to know your secret.
Everybody's going on about the CT525. Recall reading some time back that one was dynoed and was making over 630 horsepower. When Chevy came out with the Z-28, it was a 302 with rated 295 horsepower. Motor Trend dynoed the engine in one of its evaluations and it was over 400 horses. Drivers like Ronnie Johnson have made a decent racing living with the CT525 but you need to look at the tracks that he frequents to understand the why of it. He races at short tracks, primarily, where the big sodbusters generate lots of wheel spin. While they are spinning, Johnson is gone! On a big, horsepower track like Eldora, a CT525 would struggle to finish last.
Supers aren't going away but there may eventually be only one big touring sanction. After all, racing is still about who gets there first and a Singer sewing machine motor ain't gonna cut it!
Okay so here ya go on a regular $1200 to win late model night pay out is about $7400 based on 30 cars showing up! on there 2k to win nights its $9200 pay out! wow $1800. Now on a reg night they get around 1500 in stands(not exact) raise 2k shows it goes way up due to the drivers that show up well more than the 180 fans to cover it! I said 3 pit passes 1 for driver 2 crew! How many late models have only 2 crew members! And I am sorry to say our track workers are almost all volenteers. I never said raise mod, sportsmen,ss, or new class imods or something like that! If your track brings in only 400 fans fire your promoter and hire someone that has a clue! Get the community behind your track! We run 8 2k or better races a year and our track is the pride of the community! Some tracks just don't get it! I also mentioned the insurance issue so just have the 3 pit passes pay insurance only! You look around FALS and you see most of the areas businesses are sponsoring the track they don't come to the track and say hey want some money, NO promoters have a job to do! FALS went to using transponders and local business ponied up and pay the cost for them $50k about (from what I understand happened)! Yes FALS is an exception to most areas but like you said its a business get your promoters to act like ceo's and get there heads going in right direction! Hell i think Hunter and Gunner should give seminars on how to run tracks! You never started ranting about the other ideas I mentioned so you must agree with them! Grats you do have something above your shoulders! I know alot of tracks are having problems in this economy and most can't raise pay outs and you can't turn a track around over night it takes time and effort, instead of coming on hear bashing someone for having an idea why not try helping to fix your local track!TY JMO
Last edited by falsfanb12; 03-02-2015 at 04:04 PM.
Okay so here ya go on a regular $1200 to win late model night pay out is about $7400 based on 30 cars showing up! on there 2k to win nights its $9200 pay out! wow $1800. Now on a reg night they get around 1500 in stands(not exact) raise 2k shows it goes way up due to the drivers that show up well more than the 180 fans to cover it! I said 3 pit passes 1 for driver 2 crew! How many late models have only 2 crew members! And I am sorry to say our track workers are almost all volenteers. I never said raise mod, sportsmen,ss, or new class imods or something like that! If your track brings in only 400 fans fire your promoter and hire someone that has a clue! Get the community behind your track! We run 8 2k or better races a year and our track is the pride of the community! Some tracks just don't get it! I also mentioned the insurance issue so just have the 3 pit passes pay insurance only! You look around FALS and you see most of the areas businesses are sponsoring the track they don't come to the track and say hey want some money, NO promoters have a job to do! FALS went to using transponders and local business ponied up and pay the cost for them $50k about (from what I understand happened)! Yes FALS is an exception to most areas but like you said its a business get your promoters to act like ceo's and get there heads going in right direction! Hell i think Hunter and Gunner should give seminars on how to run tracks! You never started ranting about the other ideas I mentioned so you must agree with them! Grats you do have something above your shoulders! I know alot of tracks are having problems in this economy and most can't raise pay outs and you can't turn a track around over night it takes time and effort, instead of coming on hear bashing someone for having an idea why not try helping to fix your local track!TY JMO
Judging by your sentence structure and punctuation skills I would say you are in no place to be judging anyone's intelligence.
The fact is not every track is located in Fairbury, IL -- if they were then racing would be in much better shape. Some tracks have the disadvantage of being located in White Collar areas such as Maryland, California and New Jersey. It takes a whole lot more than just promoting to get people to come watch cars driving in circles on dirt as many people see them. In these areas bringing in 1000-1500 people is all you can ever hope for. If the drivers want to have a place to race they need to keep it affordable for the tracks too. The track Huck is referring to is not known for its great promoting, but it suffers from being very close to a big city with a lot of other options for entertainment (MLB, NHL, NFL, etc.) and no shortage of other race tracks (Both asphalt and dirt).
If you were only giving free pit passes to the top division (SLM in this case) then you may be on to something. I could see a track like Hagerstown, or Atomic doing this to help sway drivers from racing elsewhere. In an area that would have a lot of competition in the division that savings of $75/wk might be the deciding factor.
I certainly cannot see a track letting drivers in for free and raising the purse though -- that is very unlikely.
Last edited by W2Racing09; 03-02-2015 at 06:09 PM.
I am sorry about the intell comment! No I can not write very well, everyone rides my behind about it, a running joke in my house! I did not understand that the track he was talking about had such a big city near it and it is bum deal. Yes FALS is a different situation than most, we only have 4 dirt tracks within 100 miles, probably more. But i found this somewhere and thought i would share it. It takes everyone in the racing world to make tracks work and I hope that area realizes what they are missing! Sorry again!
Last edited by falsfanb12; 03-03-2015 at 02:25 PM.
Originally Posted by SuperEight
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Modern Day Wedge Racing
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