CT 525 Late models. Where do they belong?

[W2Racing09]

You can buy GM factory seals from various places.
Stan Lester from Fastrak swore up and down when he started Fastrak there was no way Joe racer or Joe engine shop could obtain factory seals.
He was proven wrong quite quickly.....

You are saying if someone takes a 500 or so hp motor and gets it to the point of making 700 hp nobody would notice? You could probably tell just by listening to it, that is aside from the obvious benefit of 200 more hp on track, even a driver sandbagging wouldn't be able to hide that.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Bubstr]

You are saying if someone takes a 500 or so hp motor and gets it to the point of making 700 hp nobody would notice? You could probably tell just by listening to it, that is aside from the obvious benefit of 200 more hp on track, even a driver sandbagging wouldn't be able to hide that.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Just give no handicaps and they don't have to check anything in the engine, just like it is now. Maybe the series will hire a good listener.

[Drop Shock]

Not sure when Dohm started running a 525 but he has run at the Knob before (where the rules I'm advocating are in place) and I do not see anything in the win column for him by searching on google. He may have won before but it seems he has run there several times and not won as well. I don't think the aero benefits really amount to much, in fact just the set back and weight break probably account for enough, if that wasn't enough then the 12" spoiler would do it. No spillboards required.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Roaring knob is not the only place trying to help the 525s. AMRA allows the same rules your claiming are nessecary to be competitive and Dohm wins at these little slick places in the Ohio valley like Skyline, I-77, and Beckley with an 8 inch spoiler and 2300 pounds. The spoiler and the weight would help for sure, but you also box yourself in when you do that. You can't take your car and go run anywhere outside your area.

[fastford]

Good strategy for not losing an argument,

I don't really need to prove anything to you. I already know the CT525 can keep up with an SLM with the correct weight breaks and aero breaks. Seems there are many tracks that understand that considering they run by the rules I'm arguing for.

Thanks,
Jeff.

I have not lost yet, prove me wrong....

[buster83]

hell u can get a small block 427 that puts out 800hp.

[j1s]

Try taking a Nag to the Kentucky Derby and talking them into allowing you to use drugs to make it fast. The purse money would go away PDQ, even though the Nag was cheaper.

I love this analogy!!!! My daughter competes in equestrian events. Since I have a limited budget she only has a pony, but she competes against kids with giant athletic sport horses. My daughter gets absolutely no breaks. She just has to work harder to be competitive with the "rich" kids. Occasionally we go to "pony only" shows and guess what; she wins... imagine that. When I can afford horse, she will get a horse. Until then she is becoming a better rider by having to work harder against those with better "equipment". The key is she gets no breaks due to my limited budget, and racers with limited budgets should not get breaks. If you want big boy then do what the big boys do, or get stomped!!!!

[W2Racing09]

I love this analogy!!!! My daughter competes in equestrian events. Since I have a limited budget she only has a pony, but she competes against kids with giant athletic sport horses. My daughter gets absolutely no breaks. She just has to work harder to be competitive with the "rich" kids. Occasionally we go to "pony only" shows and guess what; she wins... imagine that. When I can afford horse, she will get a horse. Until then she is becoming a better rider by having to work harder against those with better "equipment". The key is she gets no breaks due to my limited budget, and racers with limited budgets should not get breaks. If you want big boy then do what the big boys do, or get stomped!!!!

It isn't about the little guys asking for a break. It is more about adding a sustainable motor option for anyone looking to race these cars. I do not think the division is sustainable at its current $60k+ entry point (Car, Motor, Trailer, Tools, etc.). There needs to be a way to cut back some costs, and they are especially good if they do not have any effect on anyone else's car. Maybe a rule like this would bring in 4 or 5 new cars to a track like Potomac over three or four years. That is the difference between 11 cars and 15 or 16 weekly. I just don't see the point in being against it. You do everything exactly the same, you have the same motor, the same car, the same everything, you show up to the track weighing the same and doing the same stuff, you go out on the track and race the same way. It does not have any effect on you at all, it just allows others to run the division as well.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[j1s]

Let 'em run. No breaks. Just like my daughter gets to ride her pony with big horses, but she gets no breaks. What if MLB baseball let the guys with less natural power use aluminum bats? That would suck... right? Instead the less powerful guys have to fine tune there game if they want play in the majors or better yet they play in the minors for years with aspirations of one day making it to the show. The point is; if you want to be a big boy then do what it takes to be a big boy. Crying, complaining and asking for concessions is not what big boys do. Big boys face the challenge head on, and when they fail, they don't ask for break, they work harder and harder to get where they want to be. If racing a Super Late Model is what a racer wants to do, then a racer should work his tail off to make it to Supers. If that means racing a Crate for years then so be it.

[W2Racing09]

Let 'em run. No breaks. Just like my daughter gets to ride her pony with big horses, but she gets no breaks. What if MLB baseball let the guys with less natural power use aluminum bats? That would suck... right? Instead the less powerful guys have to fine tune there game if they want play in the majors or better yet they play in the minors for years with aspirations of one day making it to the show. The point is; if you want to be a big boy then do what it takes to be a big boy. Crying, complaining and asking for concessions is not what big boys do. Big boys face the challenge head on, and when they fail, they don't ask for break, they work harder and harder to get where they want to be. If racing a Super Late Model is what a racer wants to do, then a racer should work his tail off to make it to Supers. If that means racing a Crate for years then so be it.

That would be all well and good if there were not countless tracks all over the country starving for more cars. The big boys will have no place to race once tracks getting single digit car counts pull the plug on the division. I bet that any fan at a track that is forced to pull the plug would be happy to see 10 open LMs and 10 CT525 LMs racing rather than 604 Crates as the top division.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[j1s]

Well... It is America, no business venture is guaranteed to succeed. I like that!!! If you want to spread the wealth, then I am sure you can find an economy somewhere in the world that will gladly accept your way of thinking.

[fastford]

I love this analogy!!!! My daughter competes in equestrian events. Since I have a limited budget she only has a pony, but she competes against kids with giant athletic sport horses. My daughter gets absolutely no breaks. She just has to work harder to be competitive with the "rich" kids. Occasionally we go to "pony only" shows and guess what; she wins... imagine that. When I can afford horse, she will get a horse. Until then she is becoming a better rider by having to work harder against those with better "equipment". The key is she gets no breaks due to my limited budget, and racers with limited budgets should not get breaks. If you want big boy then do what the big boys do, or get stomped!!!!

very good analyses J1, if your pony cant compete with the big horses , then you enter it in the pony class. some on here, with out any substantial evidence to back it up, think the all mighty crate is gone save late model racing, lol , they think that a cheap engine and a break is gone let them be competitive with the " big boy,s" and there money. what they cant seem to understand is the ones with huge budgets will also buy these engines along with any thing else that will give them an advantage. so you crate lovers keep rite on fooling your self, but I have already witnessed this when the 602 crate first came out. it was supposed to be a low budget start up class. it lasted about a year and guess what, here comes Ronnie Johnson and several other experienced racers with more money and very expensive equipment and they pretty much dominated the crate class every where ever they went. cant blame them, they like to win to. its been proven over and over again, you cant restrict the ones with money with engines alone, they will find an advantage some where else. this is my last comment on this thread, you fellows on a budget, , like me , go buy you a 525 and jump right in and let us know a year from now how it worked out, good luck.

[W2Racing09]

Well... It is America, no business venture is guaranteed to succeed. I like that!!! If you want to spread the wealth, then I am sure you can find an economy somewhere in the world that will gladly accept your way of thinking.

Right, because this has anything to do with wealth redistribution.

Please.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

very good analyses J1, if your pony cant compete with the big horses , then you enter it in the pony class. some on here, with out any substantial evidence to back it up, think the all mighty crate is gone save late model racing, lol , they think that a cheap engine and a break is gone let them be competitive with the " big boy,s" and there money. what they cant seem to understand is the ones with huge budgets will also buy these engines along with any thing else that will give them an advantage. so you crate lovers keep rite on fooling your self, but I have already witnessed this when the 602 crate first came out. it was supposed to be a low budget start up class. it lasted about a year and guess what, here comes Ronnie Johnson and several other experienced racers with more money and very expensive equipment and they pretty much dominated the crate class every where ever they went. cant blame them, they like to win to. its been proven over and over again, you cant restrict the ones with money with engines alone, they will find an advantage some where else. this is my last comment on this thread, you fellows on a budget, , like me , go buy you a 525 and jump right in and let us know a year from now how it worked out, good luck.

Nobody is saying the big drivers can't go out and get the motor too. Nobody is asking for an advantage, just to make the motor an option FOR EVERYONE. I doubt it will ever be consistent or competitive enough that Bloomquist or someone would choose to use it over an open motor, but if it was nobody would blame them for it. The whole point is giving more people the ability to compete in the class which desperately needs more cars at the weekly level.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[MM90]

You can't have an "affordable" class have a "Super" LM payout and expect the money to stay out of the class.

[W2Racing09]

You can't have an "affordable" class have a "Super" LM payout and expect the money to stay out of the class.

I'm not saying the money should stay out of the class, it is the top non open wheel division in dirt racing. There is nowhere else for the money to go. With that said it isn't sustainable for the class to be open only to those who are rich. There are talented drivers that simply cannot afford the huge price to break into the division. If there were an option to get into the division at a lower price then that is good. They will still be competing against those with a lot more money and nobody would be complaining. It is just that right now those drivers run Steel Blocks or Crates while the Super counts dwindle. Separating them into secondary divisions does not help SLM car counts in fact it has done a whole lot to hurt them.

[j1s]

Jeff-- You are advocating for Super payouts to be shared among non-Super late models. You want promoters to distribute super payouts to non-super cars, in a sense you are promoting "redistribution of wealth". Racers who can afford to play in the big time worked their tails off to be able to do it... they have earned. If you want Super pay, get a Super. Just because someone has talent does not mean they are entitled to what someone less talented has. If someone has the talent, then they should work hard to reach their potential.

[Clayton_Wetter]

I agree with the part about all of the divisions, so how does it help to relegate the CT525 to its own division? Are you saying the motor should not be used in dirt track racing applications? A $10,000 crate motor that is capable of racing with the SLM division with a few breaks and has rebuild costs that are a fraction of that of an open motor should not be considered for dirt track racing?

No breaks for the CT525, that is not fair to those that spent the big bucks. The rules must be the same for all. Choosing to race in the SLM class or the Crate class are the options.

Does the guy with with shorter legs get to start ahead of the rest of the field in a foot Marathon?

[ClampedUp]

Nobody is saying the big drivers can't go out and get the motor too. Nobody is asking for an advantage, just to make the motor an option FOR EVERYONE. I doubt it will ever be consistent or competitive enough that Bloomquist or someone would choose to use it over an open motor, but if it was nobody would blame them for it. The whole point is giving more people the ability to compete in the class which desperately needs more cars at the weekly level.

Thanks,
Jeff.

What exactly do you want??? One post you're pushing for nose boards, 12" spoiler, and weight breaks and in this post you are saying no one is asking for an advantage.

All these crate deals remind me of is the old west snake oil salesmen selling their magical elixir that will solve all your worldly problems. And we know how that all worked out.....

[PushinTheLimit]

Would any of the big teams have a problem with the 525 being legal for WoO or Lucas if it had to meet the same rules as the open motor guys? Meaning, the 525 gets no extra spoiler, no reduced weight, etc... just have it open in the rules that you could run the motor.

If this was the case, the guy with the 525 could at least have the option of trying to make a super late race if they wanted to. If it's a night that the track is heavy and fast, they just won't keep up. If it's slicked up, then they have a chance to see what they can do. Just curious how those with supers would feel about that.

[Matt49]

Right, because this has anything to do with wealth redistribution.

Please.

Thanks,
Jeff.

I has EVERYTHING to do with wealth redistribution. Giving a handout (12" spoiler) to somebody because they can't afford an 800HP motor is racing's version of welfare.
I agree that the engines should be allowed (get rid of the coil pack rule) but to then give them a break is ridiculous.
I run a 604 crate motor and run mostly in the crate class but when we do go run with the opens we run under the same rules as them and don't complain one bit.
Our economic system is based on the idea of equal OPPORTUNITY not equal OUTCOME.