Is the crate killing imca mods

[wadegarrett]

I have a island in Nebraska I would sell you also.... I have no reason to lie so it must be true right?! ALL the seal bolts sold ALL OF THEM are not ss and will rust unlike the oem gm ones they are using now. Also they don't have the gm encryption anyone can id them from 3 feet away. They have caught guys removing the bolts here, they ALWAYS have a prick mark or punch mark from where you have to try and get them moving with a punch. I would think if friesen sold 600hp crates some of the guys I race with who are on Friesen deals would have them and they would then fly by my stock Mexican motor on the straights...

so really what this amounts to is that if you are gonna say anything bad about crates, you better have pictures or sworn statements otherwise according to SCD its all lies and made mud slinging.

[wadegarrett]

gee all the folks on this post/board are liars too and no one is cheating up crate engines like SCD says http://www.outsidegroove.com/forum/i...?topic=12741.0

[jasjenh]

Thanks ask0329 for the info, because that's what is happening in our neck of the woods. Because of the crate, guys are quitting or moving to different classes. That equals lower car count. I didn't want this to be about whos cheating a crate and who isn't.

The fact is I think you can win with a good legal crate but there is no denying the open motors have a disadvantage right now. Now I don't want the open motors to completely dominate either. But we need more parity.

[oldtrackchamp4x]

Make the crate guys put 60 lbs in front of the midplate. Let them keep the 2 in spoiler. As an open motor guy i would be ok with that. I believe the added weight would even things out. Oh, and i don't think crates are killing the class. JMO

[jasjenh]

I clearly understand his post. As I read it people are jumping ship. Same as what is happening at our track. doesn't matter where they go it just matters the numbers are down in our area. I talked with a few guys from some different regions this week and it is not happening all over.

The reason I started this post is to get a feel what is happening in other areas. I think the crate has a place in imca just not for me, as long as they even things out a bit I would consider still racing. I don't think it would take major changes but just some tweaks here and there.

Maybe its just our track, but when you watch the sport mods put on a hell of a show then watch the fans start to leave and watch a single file line of mods. I get it why people are leaving early. Maybe we should all just give in and run the crate to give the fans a good show again.

[jasjenh]

According to him, since imca went to the crate people jumped ship. obviously its not that they wont run a crate in another series. So why did they leave imca for another series if they both have crates? I am sure everyones reasons are different but the fact is they left.

A couple of years ago we had some of the best mod racing in our area. Why I think because of the claim. It kept people in check and yes it sucked when you got claimed but we didn't have people dominating all year long. Now a person can win every race in a season and there is nothing you can do about it except buy the same equipment or find someone that can build better. Either way that is not cheap.

Some of the best racing I seen recently is when they are all crate or all open except for the sportmods. Why because they are all on the same playing field. When you have 10 cars, 5 open and 5 crate, there is too much difference between them and it gets spread out. Right now I believe the crate has a slight advantage. But in the sportmods it seems to be pretty even where we are at.

[oldtrackchamp4x]

This isn't a number I came up with. The 60lb difference, according to the Karl Performance engine department, is about 20- 25lbs difference between Dart heads and GM camel hump heads. And about 35 lbs difference between a Dart Little M block and a GM 010 4 bolt main block. JMO

[DaveBauerSS6]

The Pendulum will swing back to the open motor. IMCA sport Mods softened the A Mod counts in Cali. Everyone but the hard core no crate guys are running well on the crate and enjoying it. The low fixed cost of the crate is enticing to a new guy coming to the class. Karl Chevy was the first to come out with a production volume crate killer and these motors will be refined as time goes on. I built my first crate killer and like the challenge. One positive is the price of a competitive motor went down with the crate. Imca will feed the sponsors by adjusting the rules and the claim motor will come back.

[ask0329]

SCD I understand what your getting at but again, in response to the original question, the crate being introduced in another class is one of the factors, if not the major factor for helping kill the imca mods in the northeast. We are both proving our point just from different aspects.

The second major factor being our regional director retired. Guess who replaced him? NOBODY. IMCA would not appoint another regional director. We now have a "series advisor" who is about as useful as tits on a bull. The tracks up here dont pay either. Generally $45 to start and $250 to win. Meanwhile the CRATE 602 NE DIRT Sportsman are getting $50-100 to start and up to $500-1K to win on a normal night. IMCA mods in the NE are a support class. A second tier class that really nobody sticks around to watch. Once the NE DIRT Big Blocks or the Sportsman run the grandstands empty out.

[modracr41]

READ SLOWLY, I know its hard to understand since its soooo far off topic and has zero relevance to IMCA modifieds..

BUT it clearly says DIRT went to 602 and THAT CLASS HAS become out of control with 30 plus cars..

His post would be exactly the same as a person saying..

yes the crate has killed the IMCA modifieds, the late model rules changed to allow a 602 crate and now that class has the most cars, its so affordable everyone likes it and is racing it.

The problem with the whole crate thing is you're forced to run a chevrolet. There are those of us who prefer other brands. I run Mopar. My buddy runs a Ford. With a Crate mandated class, you can't run either. Also, I beg to differ that a crate is cheaper. It's not. I can build my own open motor with accessories cheaper than you can buy a 604 and accessories. I also don't have to spend money every 8-10 nights on valve springs.

[jasjenh]

stock car driver, I don't see how you can say it has no relevance in imca when you lose cars and tracks. Yes both series have crates but they left to go to a different series for a reason. They obviously didn't like something about imca or the rules package or maybe it was just the payout.

I came up with a fitting name for guys like you. "cratehuggers" kind of like a treehugger but a little different. So are you going to chain yourself to your motor if they give some rules changes to the open guys?

[jasjenh]

Dave that is what happened here most guys quit or went sportmod. As for guys enjoying the crate here, that is not the case. out of the 10 to 12 that show up each week only 2 guys really like the crate. Most guys feel like they were forced into running one to be competitive

I do believe things go in cycles and the open may come back a little but only if some changes are made.

I applaud you for taking on the challenge of running an open because I know what you will be going through.

[RW57]

We have the same thing going on at our local track expect its not open wheel cars . we have a class called super bomber it is actually a sportsman type class late model 4 bar jig cars you can run a 602 and weigh 2350 or a built motor as its called factory vortech heads 2 vr forged pistons roller rockers no cc on heads at 2550 there are 2 cars running 602's one is pretty much winning every week the other is competitive but driver one has more experience. He is laughing all the way to the bank his motor cost 3400 or so the built motors are between 10 to 15 grand depending on who built it. We run in a class with tube back half camaro clipped front 3 link w\ quick change rears its a 15000 dollar car if someone builds you one we built our own.what we are looking at doing is buying a late model roller 3 to 6 thousand dollars a 602 and move up.My point is this we could not afford to do this if we had to build a" built" type motor as they call it.The reason I quit myself over 30 years ago was motor cost the crate would have been a lifesaver for me back then. if we do not move up we will probably buy a 602 even though it only gets a 100# wgt break in our class 2700 vs 2600 for a 602.

[Confused?]

The tech, or lack of, is a track issue. IMCA isn't bending or changing rules for the Crates. The ONLY thing a Crate Modified has that an open motor car doesn't, is the 2" blade. It used to be 3" but that gave the crates too much of an advantage so IMCA cut it down to 2". Who knows what they will change for next season.

At our track, there are only about 6-8 crates. Most guys run open motors. Three of the top four, last weekend were open motors. A crate won by .04 seconds and he started on the front row. FWIW, our track is a dry, 3/8 mile, medium banked track. The crates that run up front are driven by guys that were winning with open motors before. Some spend far more than was ever intended. Some spend less. IMO, the crates are NOT killing the IMCA Modified, and no, I do not support the crate idea. It has helped me realize that people are spending WAY too much on motors and building too big of motors.

There are about a half dozen things that can be checked on the crate by the tech teams. All it takes is a little time and a couple of tools totaling about $300. Not that big of expense for a track. It still falls on the tech team, not the sanctioning body. The body writes the rules and the track's tech team is supposed to enforce them. Ours does. I know this for a fact.

[RW57]

I know they have teched the 602s after the won a couple of championship races I guess they pull v\c to check rocker arms and seal bolts . actually there are 3 of them running and all 3 have won races on one of the cars the driver got back into racing after a lot of years away on count of cost he says he is not spending 10 grand or more on a motor he just wants to have fun.

[RaceTechKs]

Well I see SCD is still the only guy who knows anything. LMAO..... Yes you guys are correct, there are guys out there buying 3 or 4 engines and spending money on dyno time to get the best one. If you have ever checked the tolerance's that GM says they can have you would see why guys try to find the better ones. And yes there are guys out the spending WELL OVER $10.000 to get the Crates put in there cars. I have friend with a 602 that is sharing all the information he gets with his dyno time and all the money and parts he puts on his crate. Its amazing the money he spent to get 380 HP out of his 602. He even did some testing with a 4412 Holley for me just to find the crate only lost 33hp on the 2bbl vs 4bbl. So his Crate is still putting out 348 hp on a 4412 2bbl. And yes I think theres something we could look at and help take money out of the open/spec 2bbl Sportmod or BMods. And YES I have said from the very beginning, just give it time and the Crate will die....

[RaceTechKs]

SCD, Im not telling you nothing.......you are the one that believes everything IMCA or BUILDERS blow up your a$$. They even bought a dyno.....and then YOU believe what they say as far as HP out put....ARE YOU KIDDING ME.????? Anyone knows you can make a dyno read what you want it too...That I have seen with my own eyes. That's why you can put the same engine on 4 different dynos and get 4 different readings.....But you already know that....Right.? And G.M. has now changed the Crate what is it now, 4 times its been updated from Springs to Cams and Pistons and Rods, and every change has given it more HP. And I do believe that IMCA track owners have been told to keep them slick for the Crates to have the advantage. You get the Crates on heavy flat out hammer down tracks and they get theres a$$es handed to them. Also, The guy that shares all the info with me runs 602 and 604 engines. He buys new ones every year and has all the documented dyno time hes done from fresh out of the box with all the stuff the dealers tell you you need and then all the trick after market stuff sold.......yep keep telling yourself theres no difference, your a fool. And I can promise you hes got well over $12.000 in getting his 604 dropped in his car... Yep Crates are cheaper.

[RaceTechKs]

SCD......If you only knew....LMFAO.. Son if I taught you ever thing I knew in one day your head would explode. You don't have a clue. Guys spending real money on Crates are not using chassis dynos. And I do know what changes have been done to the crates.....I have made up nothing, its all fact. Soooo, Smart Guy what is the tolerance or the difference in camshaft lift alone that GM states could be different from one engine to the next. ??? Call them and ask, lets see if they tell you. I will give you a hint, its in print......LOL.

[rustymod]

SCD, Im not telling you nothing.......you are the one that believes everything IMCA or BUILDERS blow up your a$$. They even bought a dyno.....and then YOU believe what they say as far as HP out put....ARE YOU KIDDING ME.????? Anyone knows you can make a dyno read what you want it too...That I have seen with my own eyes. That's why you can put the same engine on 4 different dynos and get 4 different readings.....But you already know that....Right.? And G.M. has now changed the Crate what is it now, 4 times its been updated from Springs to Cams and Pistons and Rods, and every change has given it more HP. And I do believe that IMCA track owners have been told to keep them slick for the Crates to have the advantage. You get the Crates on heavy flat out hammer down tracks and they get theres a$$es handed to them. Also, The guy that shares all the info with me runs 602 and 604 engines. He buys new ones every year and has all the documented dyno time hes done from fresh out of the box with all the stuff the dealers tell you you need and then all the trick after market stuff sold.......yep keep telling yourself theres no difference, your a fool. And I can promise you hes got well over $12.000 in getting his 604 dropped in his car... Yep Crates are cheaper.

thanks for posting. all these crate lovers keep acting like crates are saving the world, the economy and bringing world peace. the truth is running a crate is no cheaper and the bolt on parts to compete with one are driving up the cost. SCD can keep telling everyone how great the out of box crate is but its not the case, not to mention tracks that are now catering to them with the surface being dry.\\

If you are using the almighty world saving crate why do you need to dyno at all ? If they are ALL the same as we keep hearing then whats the point in putting them on dyno, sounds like a HUGE waste of time and money....unless you are doing some changes that you want to monitor and compare.

they just win right out of the crate dont they ????

heck the way I hear it you win races by just having one in your garage and save BIG money, and use less fuel and global climate change is impacted too.

[brett4]

rustymod,do you own a car or pay 100% of the bills???? running a crate is much much cheaper....the coupler and headers are the only thing different...take your current carb and send it to your carb guy and have it calibrated for a crate and he will get you real close......in what world can you run a open motor 50-60 races and get 2 thirds of your money back.....or even run a open motor 50-60 nights with out digging into her????? i agree it suck's for the local machine shops....but how can you wrong with $5800,change the oil and look at the valve's once a month and not worry about her.....plus burn half the fuel......man this just terrible