604 Crate still a little too tight

[PushinTheLimit]

So every since I have started racing crate late models at the end of 2013, I have been fighting a tight condition in my car at just about every track I race on... if it is muddy or high traction. Once the track slicks off, I feel pretty good in the car and it's comfortable to drive. Just this past weekend, I raced at a 1/3 mile high banked track with tacky conditions and I was very tight in hot laps to the point I was having to pitch and catch the car in the corners by stabbing the brakes and hammering on the throttle. If I did it right, it worked ok... but I don't like doing that and it's easy to miss the corner doing that.

The track is a small d-shaped track. Turn 2 opens up and turn 4 is tighter. On turns 1-2, the car felt pretty good, still a little tight when I picked the throttle back up, but felt decent. The biggest problem I had was going into 3. I would stab the brakes, pitch the car and try to get back in the throttle quick. As soon as I did, it felt like the front tires would skate up the track and the only thing I could do was to just completely get out of the throttle for it to turn.

Here's what my setup looks like... 2006 Rocket blue front

Weight (with me in the car)
Left - 55.12%
Rear - 52.58%
Bite - 69 lbs

Springs

LF - 400, RF - 350, LR - 225, RR - 225, 5th -300, 6th - 400

J-Bar Frame (Rocket spec), Pinion (just above center)
Stagger - 5"

Shocks (Ohlins DA)
Setup close to Tacky setting from Shy

Rear Bars (counting from bottom to top holes)

LR Top 2/4, LR Bottom 5/6, RR Top 3/3, RR Bottom 2/3

[7uptruckracer]

Where are all your bars on the birdcage, what is LR drop?, Are you on chains on both sides? Where is motor mounted? Where is 5th coil mounted? What tire are you on? Bump stops? What are the actual lengths of your bars? Front end settings? You have to make some changes from baseline but you shouldn't be this far out on some of your settings. I just revamped a crate this week and went with the usual baseline i use (not rocket) and it was good out the box? Make sure birdcages are bent or have slop in them. Bars are free and shocks are not bent. I think i've helped you before but this isn't anything close to what i run

[PushinTheLimit]

On the left side, the top bar is at the top mounting point on the birdcage. On the right side, the same. Maybe index it down on the right side could be something to try.

The 5th is mounted on the 2nd hole from the rear at 38". Limiter chain on the LR and the drop is spec with what Rocket calls for. Tire rule is open fronts (I usually run 1300's) and 1600 rear. No bumpstops. Bar lengths are standard rocket setting. Front end settings, 5/8" toe out, +1 1/2 caster LF, +3 1/2 caster RF, +5.5 degree camber LF, -5 degree camber RF.

I anticipated the tracks this weekend to be more dry slick and they weren't. I didn't want to get too far away from how it feels now in the slick but just need to get it more free in the corners, especially my mid-corner throttle push.

You've suggested before going to a 175 LR spring and I could go back to it again.

[A ron]

I'm new and having the same problem. Everybody tells me I'm just not driving it hard enough. RF just skates on entry like you said. The later in the night it gets, the better it turns. No suggestions, sympathizing with you haha

[7uptruckracer]

I think we maybe came to the conclusion the chassis is bottoming out. He was on a high speed high banked heavy track. It doesn't do it at his home track where he is very fast, and it didn't do it at this weekends track after it slicked off. His car isn't an update crossmember car and doesn't have the clearance

[A ron]

Mine could be doing the same thing. The lower frame rail behind my RF is extremely low to the ground, it's an old 98 GRT and has never been updated. Skates/pushes sporadically (although may be that my driving is inconsistent) . One lap it's on entry, next lap its from the center to the exit. When it skates, it feels like I'm on a straight train track with the wheel turned all the way left until I peddle it enough to make it turn. Is there a way to tell? Maybe put some duct tape on the frame rail and see it its rubbed off?

[7uptruckracer]

Make an external travel indicator. Then pull the car down in the shop. Tape is hard on dirt. You can update the GRT a little but those older ones push as it is

[PushinTheLimit]

I looked under my car and you can tell the frame rail has been hitting the track... and I think it has only started doing that more lately as I'm getting faster in the car. Like 7uptruckracer said, it only happened at this one track (hammer down tacky around the top) and not at my home track (tacky but slighter more slick bottom to middle groove).

I also found that I may have had my compression too soft on my RF shock and that could've caused the car to bottom out. We'll go back there a couple of weeks and I'll update this thread when we do.

[A ron]

yeah everyone told me I was wasting my time buying that old of a car, but had to buy what I could afford. Either way, I've had some fun and learned a ton in a year's time.

[A ron]

Yeah I can tell it's hitting somewhere, but not sure if it's on the track or going on and off the track.

[7uptruckracer]

Pull it down check A frame clearance, Most of the old chassis you can't go below 350 on the RF. I think you'll be around a 400 on that GRT. Some add compression to the RF shock to keep it outta the track. I worked on one of those 98s before they really struggled being to tight.

[PushinTheLimit]

I got a friend that has a 97 or 98 GRT that has been updated and he has won many races on that car as a crate and steelhead so they can still be good cars. I had planned on maybe getting mine updated this winter... that's turned into more of a need to now I guess.

[Jim11h]

If throttle push take 4-6 turns outta both RR bars. That's what we did on black front and cured problem. Essentially rocket drives with rear

[7uptruckracer]

Taking turns outta the RR with shorten the Right Side and make it push worse. This is an 06 Blue Front with a crate most of the crates run even LONGER RS bars so they don't bog you have to keep a crate free. If hes getting into the racetrack nothing will help that besides getting it outta the track he flies everywhere else, but never runs high banked hammer downs, he also had really soft RF compression. None of the new quicker cars are as rear dominant as they use to be that's why you have guys talk about how positive they steer these days, between the new front ends and shock packages we are really getting away from the "traditional" ways of tuning.

[PushinTheLimit]

Yeah, we might actually lengthen our RS bars a little and see how that does with the other couple of changes. I watched some of the other top crate guys at this track and they had their cars very free to keep their momentum up on the top groove of the track. When I was slinging my car in, I was bogging it down and losing all my momentum.

[phenom08]

This winter have the new style cross member put in. It makes a world of difference. Until the rocket makes drop spindles to help with the bottoming out

[PushinTheLimit]

Just an update on this... we raced at a new track to us this past weekend since the UCRA crate race at Cleveland was rained out. About the only changes I made on the car from what I posted above was lengthen the RS bars each 1/4", lengthened the J-Bar about 1/4", moved the LRT rod down one hole, RRL rod up one hole with a 450lb LF spring. The track was a 1/3 mile high banked with no inside or outside walls. The track was pretty tacky but had 3 grooves to race on.

Usually my car is very tight when it's tacky at all but it felt very good. Didn't have to slide the brakes to get the car to rotate, but just used a good bit of pressure and as soon as it rotated, I was on the throttle all the way through the corner. Good forward bite off the corner and good side bite in the center of the corner. I only pushed a couple of times in the feature but I felt that was more due to driver error.

[keeks]

Doesn't lowering the upper bar on the cage tighten the car by limiting rear steer?

[Kwoods25]

2006 is a raised rail car. It shouldn't be hitting. But I bet it's bottoming out on the front bolt of the lower. Put a 250 on the RR. What is comp. And reb. On RF? Also try a 1 in spacer on the RR. What is the tube length on the LR?

[7uptruckracer]

Yes it's raised rail but not raised crossmember which started in 2013 on the Blue Rocket. Most before that will run a 1" puck style bump to keep it outta the track. If you think about what a high banking track will do to the LS which will in turn effect the RS clearances it makes sense. He was flying this weekend though. Rocket raised the crossmember for a reason. They also designed a tapered bumper and raised the bumper mounts to keep that out of the track too.