Kyle Larson Back In A Midget, Back On Dirt

[CIRF]

Somehow the author of this post forgot to mention Ron Shuman. I attended every single Turkey night from 1966 until I moved out of California. The Turkey nights at Ascot were the best. The key to the authors post was in the last 10 years, very important fact. Overall my choices would be Vogler, Shuman, and Hewitt. Kyle Larson is one bad hombre.




Late Model Mark
Talladega Short Track Announcer

I've only attended 2 Turkey Night Grand Prix's, both at Perris. We would have attended several more had Turkey Night not been run on asphalt for 13 years prior to 2012. Nothing against asphalt, it's just not my thing.

Ascot was just a bit before my time and I'd love to have seen any kind of race there but Turkey Night would have been the ultimate. I guess I need to clarify that Ascot wasn't technically before my time, it was before the time when I had enough disposable income to make the 2000 mile trip to SoCal. Personally I think Ventura would be a great place for Turkey Night. Only been there once but it looks like it would be a great midget track. Prolly need to wear a snow mobile suit to stay warm but that's another story.

Shuman would be in the top 3 or 4 of all time along with the other two previously mentioned, Vogler and Jack Hewitt and one could add A.J. into that elite group. Shuman was similar to Larson in that he never won a USAC National touring series championship but Shu sure owned Turkey Night and CRA and SCRA. I think he won a bunch of Western World Championships, too. How many TNGP's did he win, something like 9 or 10, wasn't it?

I gotta' believe that Shu would have had a chance at NASCAR if his career was unfolding now like it did in his day. Timing is everything.

[DoubleZero]

Although he will have a new crew chief next year, I'm not sure Kyle Larson's potential will be realized at Ganassi. The Tony Stewart assignment would have put him (more) under the Hendrick umbrella.

[Late_Model_Mark]

22 cars last night, pitiful turnout.


Late Model Mark
Talladega Short Track Announcer

[CIRF]

22 cars last night, pitiful turnout.


Late Model Mark
Talladega Short Track Announcer

Yep, not good. It may have been that they decided to do heat races, etc. 98 laps on the short 1/2 of Perris is hard on equipment and some might have stayed away for that reason. However, that doesn't account for all of the no show's. Another factor may be that the car count as a whole in California and Arizona, et al, is much lower than in the East and Midwest and owners may feel that they can't justify a 1500 to 2500 mile pull for just one race.

The first year at Perris, 2012, and our first year at TN they had 80 cars. What changed in just 3 short years?

What we saw while watching the internet PPV of TNGP is that all 22 cars were very good cars, most of which were capable of winning which made up for the low numbers.


The fact that Perris only gets 22 cars for this year's TNGP and Belleville had 34 cars this past July/August but The Chili Bowl draws in excess of 300 is also a bit of a mystery.

The Chili Bowl draws almost 100 cars more than the largest car count ever at the World Hundred.

It isn't because the cars aren't out there. Something else is going on.

[Late_Model_Mark]

Agreed. Back in the day as people say, the Turkey Night race at Ascot was ultra, repeat, ultra tough to make. Also back in time USAC would have shows for the boys at Ventura, in Arizona, and other tracks out West. Heat races did not have a dog gone thing to do with the lousy turnout, it was tougher to make the show with the old format, the midget folks knew the turnout would be low so they wanted the fans to get more racing, plus Perris, a track I hit more the 50 times, is a complete wallet drainer. High cost to park, get in the grandstand, $50 dollar on some event pit passes and outrageous concession prices. Still. such a great event should have more cars.



Late Model Mark
Talladega Short Track Announcer

[CIRF]

No doubt about that, a better car count should be expected. Turkey Night has to be one of the oldest running dirt races in the country at 75 years and is considered a crown jewel of conventional open wheel racing. Mark, your point of Ventura and other venue's no longer hosting midget racing around Thanksgiving hurting car count is a good and valid one, as well.

But, having said that, what has changed in the past 3 years? There were 79 or 80 cars in the pits for TN back in 2012. I was there and it was one of the better nights of racing we've seen in the recent past. Did the shine come off the apple?

Right or wrong I believe a significant detriment to car count has to do with a dwindling number of active midgets on the West Coast these days and $35,000.00 engines being twisted up tight for long periods of time on the half mile. Both of those aspects obviously go hand in hand. At 35 large a copy for a midget engine that is competitive with Keith Kunz and a few others I believe there is a significant financial component at play here. I've been looking at a couple of open wheel boards the past couple of days and the added laps of the heat races has come up in conversations involving some midget owners. I'm only going by what they're saying.

The same thing happened with the Hut Hundred when it was run at Terre Haute. Track was too big. It's happening in all forms of short track racing. The people putting out the money for the racing equipment are becoming more and more sensitive to track size and configuration and it's effect on component durability. It's obvious you can't have it both ways. You can't have peak horsepower and torque curves and expect them to last as long on a big ol' half mile as a little 1/4 or 3/8's bull ring.

I would agree the cost of competing and spectating at Perris is much higher than many other venue's and I would agree that Perris' pricing may be a factor as well. Welcome to Southern California! But in our case, flying from the Midwest, renting a car, paying for decent and safe lodging along with Southern California food and drink prices and attending the race was not going to be a regular yearly occurrence so we were probably less sensitive to the costs as we would be if it was a yearly occurrence. A couple bottles of Temecula wine country vino adds up in a hurry, too! LOL!

[Late_Model_Mark]

Once again I fully agree with your solid points, especially the engines. I liked the Midgets of the 70s' the best including the VW powered cars of the day.


Late Model Mark
TST Announcer

[oldfart50]

So even with a weak field the greatest of all time was only able to be the first loser? That just doesn't seem right...

[CIRF]

Although we weren't able to make the trip out to Perris this year for Turkey Night we watched it on internet PPV. Don't get the idea it was a weak field. Any time Keith Kunz has 5 or 6 cars in a race you can be assured the field isn't weak. I would say there were at least 15 or 16 cars in the field that could have won the 98 lap A-main. Quantity does not always equate to quality.

In 2012 when we were at Perris for Turkey Night there were 80 cars and I'd say the quality of the starting field of the A-main was not much, if any, better than the starting field Thanksgiving night.

Not sure who you're referring to as the greatest of all time. That covers a lot of territory.

[Late_Model_Mark]

CIRF, how would you rate Stewart Friesen in this view about Larson being the best overall in the last bunch of years? That question will certainly jar your knowledge. Very curious on your answer.



Late Model Mark
Talladega Short Track Announcer

[CIRF]

I must admit I'm not all that familiar with Stewart Friesen. What I know about Friesen off the top of my head is that he is a DIRT big block modified competitor (a pretty good one, too) and has won the Super Dirt Week Finale' at Syracuse this year and last year and 2 or 3 other times. Those win's are a pretty impressive driver resume' all by themselves. Friesen may have had some success in winged sprint cars IIRC but we don't follow the winged cars as much as some other types of cars.

If Mr. Friesen has ventured beyond, and has been successful driving, other types of racing besides a BBM and winged sprint cars I humbly plead ignorance.

Syracuse SDW was a bucket list destination similar to Ascot Park, Langhorne and the beach road course race on the sands of Daytona Beach. We never attended any of those 3 venues since they were before my time. Syracuse always fell at a very busy time of year for us and will sadly fade away without us having attended.

[Raceready]

Its not as if you missed a lot if you are one that likes good racing as I suspect that you do. The Miller 300 races tended to be a long drawn out 1 lane affair. Usually the winner was on the front row and the only hope for advancement was through pit stops or attrition.

[CIRF]

Its not as if you missed a lot if you are one that likes good racing as I suspect that you do. The Miller 300 races tended to be a long drawn out 1 lane affair. Usually the winner was on the front row and the only hope for advancement was through pit stops or attrition.

Raceready, how many pit stops were necessary in the 300?

[Raceready]

1stop I believe. Some made 2. If I recall correctly everyone had to do a mandatory after the 150th lap. there were several that lost the race over the years with 5 or less laps to go because of running out. It was the mid 90s when we went there for a STARS race. We were less than pleased because it was so late in the year and there was another higher paying race somewhere so a bunch of the boys that couldn't advance in the points didn't make the long tow there. Donnie Moran won and there were about 4 or so in the top 10 that would have struggled to qualify in any regional series event. Dusty and no passing. The type of race where you could go eat in the middle of it and come back and find the same cars in the same positions. P.S. I believe the last race or so was writhe in scandal because the winner had a fuel cell over 3 gallons bigger than everyone else. It was the same who had won the previous year so most feel as if that win was tainted as well !

[CIRF]

Hmmmm, interesting side note on the fuel cell capacity. Thanks.

It sounds as if we maybe were just as well not to make it out East for SDW.

I dearly love the 1 mile dirt tracks but there are certain types of cars that aren't suited for the long dirt tracks. Dirt late models, midgets, winged and non winged sprint cars are just a few that traditionally never were all that exciting on the mile tracks. Those divisions were never meant to go as fast as they are capable of going on a mile and the drivers generally aren't accustomed to going that fast and the racing generally suffers as a result. The big block modified's also may be one of those divisions. But having never seen them on a mile I really don't know.

The ARCA stock cars, USAC Silver Crown cars generally put on a good show on the mile dirt tracks. Surprisingly enough, the econo mods, or whatever they call them these days, (UMP Modifieds maybe?) usually put on a pretty good show on the mile tracks.

[Raceready]

The mods sure have changed a lot since I watched them a lot back in the day. They had the Gremlin style bodies on them and the body of the car just sort of flopped to the right entering a corner and then slowly it leveled out and then flopped over again when the driver sat it up for the next turn. lol !

[CIRF]

Raceready, are the big blocks required to run mufflers at all venues throughout the season?

[Raceready]

I don't know for sure now. I think at one time there were a few tracks that were too close to certain towns that they had to have them on.

[Late_Model_Mark]

I ask the author about his thoughts of Matt Shepherd and his exploits. Or Mark Noble and or Jason Hughes? How many track championships has Larson won and sanctioning titles? Just asking as I don't know about any track titles for Larson, my ignorance on that. Friesen won 34 races, in Big-block Mods, 358 Mods, WoO sprints and 360 sprints. Shepherd won 31 shows and the SDS title.


Also the author may have looked over Mr. Bloomquist or Mr. Lanigan Just my view and mine only, but I feel that the competition in the overall Late Model scene and certainly the Big Block Mod arena is quite brutal compared to other disciplines of dirt. I may be wrong but that is how I view it after all the stuff I have viewed thru the years. No disrespect to other forms at all, I also respect CIRF view as the man loves this sport.



Late Model Mark
Talladega Short Track Announcer

[CIRF]

I ask the author about his thoughts of Matt Shepherd and his exploits. Or Mark Noble and or Jason Hughes? How many track championships has Larson won and sanctioning titles? Just asking as I don't know about any track titles for Larson, my ignorance on that. Friesen won 34 races, in Big-block Mods, 358 Mods, WoO sprints and 360 sprints. Shepherd won 31 shows and the SDS title.


Also the author may have looked over Mr. Bloomquist or Mr. Lanigan Just my view and mine only, but I feel that the competition in the overall Late Model scene and certainly the Big Block Mod arena is quite brutal compared to other disciplines of dirt. I may be wrong but that is how I view it after all the stuff I have viewed thru the years. No disrespect to other forms at all, I also respect CIRF view as the man loves this sport.



Late Model Mark
Talladega Short Track Announcer

Appreciate the kind words, Mark. I do love dirt racin' of all kinds. I hold your opinions in deference to my own since I haven't been involved, other than being a bleacher jockey, in any type of racing operation for over a decade now.

I would be interested in where you would rank diverse drivers like Jack Hewitt, Kyle Larson and Christopher Bell among the drivers you mention.

To my knowledge Larson has not won any sanction titles or track championships. However, I can't speak for his days driving outlaw karts in California. It appears that he focused on winning races. Races that would get him noticed and build a resume'. Mission accomplished, I reckon.

I have no doubts that 1 or more of the aforementioned drivers has the talent and dedication, if given equal equipment, could possibly build a driving resume' equal to, or better than Larson or Bell.

I believe if the guys mentioned, Freisen, Shepherd, Noble or Hughes had won races and track championships in addition to driving and winning races in USAC Silver Crown cars, winged and wingless sprints and midgets at marque' events such as the 4 Crown Nationals, Du Quoin, Indiana Sprint Week, The Belleville Midget Nationals, The Knoxville Nationals (a preliminary A-main), The Chili Bowl (several preliminary A-mains), Turkey Night Grand Prix, the WoO Gold Cup and in a Daytona Prototype sports car at the Rolex 24 at Daytona I firmly believe we'd be talking about their budding NASCAR careers. However, it's very near impossible to do both at the same time. That statement is not meant to diminish the accomplishments of the aforementioned drivers, not by any stretch of the imagination. But, winning those events turn heads and get a driver noticed. Just ask Tim McCreadie, who was successful in both big block modifieds and dirt late models but what got him a shot at NASCAR was winning The Chili Bowl.

As far as Bloomquist and Lanigan are concerned their career resume' speaks for itself but the indisputable facts are that both of those guys, as great as they are, ventured out of the DLM's with very little success. Diversity and success are a powerful combination in today's specialized dirt racing environment and those who can pull it off are a special breed.