UMP Modified chassis rule

[badfast47]

I know Camaro clips are not allowed but why is it there not allowed. Thanks in advance

[Anonymous24]

Originally to keep costs low. I would assume. Easier and cheaper to work with frame stubs rather than unibody. Also options for the frame stub are fewer than what one could do to a unibody clip.

[Bcollins82]

Originally to keep costs low. I would assume. Easier and cheaper to work with frame stubs rather than unibody. Also options for the frame stub are fewer than what one could do to a unibody clip.

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I'm certain UMP for the most part copied their rules from somewhere else, the full frame rule was most likely in there already. If you want 70-81 camaro geometry (the clips everyone uses) you can use a mid 70s Monte Carlo clip. I believe the geometry is the same.

[Anonymous24]

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.I'm certain UMP for the most part copied their rules from somewhere else, the full frame rule was most likely in there already. If you want 70-81 camaro geometry (the clips everyone uses) you can use a mid 70s Monte Carlo clip. I believe the geometry is the same.

Please explain how I am incorrect. All I see here is a diffence in opinion. Thanks.

[Bcollins82]

1. Cheaper and easier? How is it cheaper to buy a full frame vs a clip? How is it easier dealing with a complete full frame rather than just that bolt on camaro stub? Have you ever actually seen a camaro clip? Lol

2. Options. I don't even know what you are trying to say here. That a full frame is somehow harder to cheat up than a camaro clip?

3. Watch Billy Madison dude.. It's a joke, lighten up.

[HEAVY DUTY]

The original rules were written by IMCA in about 79. UMP copied the rules in 91. There have been rules omitted since then. The frame rules used to say " any American made full framed perimeter style passenger car frame. No sports cars or uni-body sub frame allowed, and must extend to 36" from the center line of the rear axle" Now the Chinese frames are allowed, because of availability. Now UMP allows them to be cut at the motor plate, so the 36" from rear axle doesn't apply. There aren't any wrecking yards left in a lot of areas to get frames, and builders are forced to use the Chinese frames, which cost the racer a lot extra. It is time for the sanctioning bodies to look at getting a spec front clip made, that the builders can build off of. They would be stronger and cheaper for the racers. Make them weigh the same as stock, with all the stock suspension and steering parts that are still available at the parts store. That way they wont be an advantage over stock

[Bcollins82]

The original rules were written by IMCA in about 79. UMP copied the rules in 91. There have been rules omitted since then. The frame rules used to say " any American made full framed perimeter style passenger car frame. No sports cars or uni-body sub frame allowed, and must extend to 36" from the center line of the rear axle" Now the Chinese frames are allowed, because of availability. Now UMP allows them to be cut at the motor plate, so the 36" from rear axle doesn't apply. There aren't any wrecking yards left in a lot of areas to get frames, and builders are forced to use the Chinese frames, which cost the racer a lot extra. It is time for the sanctioning bodies to look at getting a spec front clip made, that the builders can build off of. They would be stronger and cheaper for the racers. Make them weigh the same as stock, with all the stock suspension and steering parts that are still available at the parts store. That way they wont be an advantage over stock

Couldn't agree more on the spec clips! Spec clips built by one manufacturer that provides the sanctioning bodies with a quick, easy jig to check the mounting points.

[let-r-eat]

Those aftermarket tube clips aren't cheap either? Howe, Port City, etc?

[Lizardracing]

I just think it's funny that you guys think that UMP had a thought on the why it's a rule! hahaha!
Most of the rules in the UMP book make little sense in the context of expense, availability, durabiltiy, etc...

Asking one or two companies to have a monopoly on a "spec" frame will drive the purchase price up because no one else can compete forcing the price down with options.
The same thing has happened with tires....Buy the Hoosiers at Hoosiers price or don't race! Imagine this...20 tire companies trying to sell you tires. You would get options as each company tries to make their tire more competitive against the other 19. Now imagine 20 places to get frames.....each bidding for price, availability, durabilty, etc...the price goes down. One could argue what happens if you get a frame that's somehow cheated up or the pick up points moved around or whatever.....That's on the purchaser to make sure what they are buying fits what they need. All it takes a Datem and a tape measure to verify.

In the street machine world of hotrodding there are already lots of companies making Chevelle and metric Stubs and frames for use in restorations and performance. . Any of those several companies can help a racer out I'm sure.

Personally I love choices....I get exactly what I want to pay for and get to decide how I want to pay for it.

[Bcollins82]

I just think it's funny that you guys think that UMP had a thought on the why it's a rule! hahaha!
Most of the rules in the UMP book make little sense in the context of expense, availability, durabiltiy, etc...

Asking one or two companies to have a monopoly on a "spec" frame will drive the purchase price up because no one else can compete forcing the price down with options.
The same thing has happened with tires....Buy the Hoosiers at Hoosiers price or don't race! Imagine this...20 tire companies trying to sell you tires. You would get options as each company tries to make their tire more competitive against the other 19. Now imagine 20 places to get frames.....each bidding for price, availability, durabilty, etc...the price goes down. One could argue what happens if you get a frame that's somehow cheated up or the pick up points moved around or whatever.....That's on the purchaser to make sure what they are buying fits what they need. All it takes a Datem and a tape measure to verify.

In the street machine world of hotrodding there are already lots of companies making Chevelle and metric Stubs and frames for use in restorations and performance. . Any of those several companies can help a racer out I'm sure.

Personally I love choices....I get exactly what I want to pay for and get to decide how I want to pay for it.

We're not saying you must run that fab spec clip, just make the pickup points the same as a Chevelle because that's what most everyone is using anyway, make it accept the stock parts, and make it weigh roughly the same. Leave the upper control arm mounts off and let the chassis builder position those like they can now. Then it's your choice to use the spec clip, a metric clip, a ford clip, etc... There are no front clips made to these specs that I'm aware of. I know Howe builds a Camaro clip, but I'm not sure it's built to weigh the same. If you let multiple companies build the clips there would be no control just like now with the lower A arms...

UMP won't use a tape measure to check anything besides a body, and they most certainly aren't going to do the measuring it would take to verify a fab clip hadn't been altered from stock. You'd have to use some sort of go/no go jig that slid under the car to verify the points that a dummy could use, because that's exactly who would be using it.

If you think you will save a racer money by letting 20 tire companies in and compete so racers pay $90 for a tire instead of $110 you are delusional. Brand X will work better at one track, brand Y works better at another, brand Z works better here, how many tires do you think the racer will have to buy? Do you seriously think competing tire companies wouldn't need to constantly R&D tires driving the price up? And with the volume sold it wouldn't be worth messing with for most companies. You'd end up at a single brand or 2 brands in no time. The problem is UMP allowing Hoosier to sell multiple compounds instead of a single tire like IMCA.

[Lizardracing]

Well then there ya go....If it's not going to checked in technical Inspection and enforced than the problem is NOT who makes the clips or how many there are or anything else.

Without consequence there shall be no catalyst for change.

If I were to own or promote a track I would make Technical Inspection the highest paid and most powerful employment position. It would also be the most demanding and volatile. I would also make a protocol procedure that any DQ would have to be visually inspected and agreed too by the Tech Man, the flag man, the promoter and the owner. The following week the infraction would get announced at the drivers meeting. No names or car numbers would be publicly givenas that's not very important however drivers/teams knowing that that tech is watching and enforcing is.

I really enjoy respectful debates to learn things and gain a different perspective too. I really think that civil discourse can fix almost every problem we have whether it be racing or politics or just coexisting as fellows Americans. However when a difference in opinion becomes to much for one to handle and name calling ensues....I lose respect for that person. I am not delusional. I do have an excellent understanding of what I believe and why I believe what I do as well as an understanding others have opinions that matter too.

I think in the case of multiple tires allowed in, your dead on about a certain tires possibly being better in some areas but that's the beauty of the free market type system because the choices racers have will force the tire companies to make their tire more attractive to buyers at a lesser price or simply go out of business. If they do go out of business, than that's an opportunity for someone else to step up and make that tire attractive to buyers. Chassis guys might even step into this also making their chassis work better on certain tires and tracks and promoters are going to have step up and make their tracks more attractive to the drivers/chassis/tire companies. All these choices drive a product to cost less with higher quality. I cannot agree to a monopoly ever being a benefit for anyone expect the person who owns the monopoly nor can I get on board with assigning a monetary value to everything for enforcement reasons

[Bcollins82]

The problems most definitely lie in the inspection or lack thereof. But with UMP who is going to get the inspectors together and change the process? Their fearless leader can barely tell a carb from a starter... The tracks definitely need to step it up on inspections as you suggest. This lack of effort on inspection is absolutely the reason there needs to be a fast and easy way to check a fab front clip without a tape measure. If you use a tape in UMP and 36" is a rule, 37" or 38" will be allowed, well then that's normal so the rule gets pushed to 38", then 40" is allowed. There is no end to it with them. And who is going to police the chassis builders to make sure their clip weighs X amount and is built to spec other than where a jig would hit? It's a can of worms that doesn't need opened IMO.

But on tires I believe you are dead wrong. The racer is his own worst enemy. If there are endless tire options I see endless amounts of tires purchased. Yeah, you will end up with better quality tires, but at what cost? It absolutely won't be a lower price that sells a tire, it will be performance. Then everyone will have to buy the better performing tires no matter the cost until someone else builds a better tire, then all your current tires are obsolete. None of this will save any racer a dime... And it will definitely discourage traveling because tire A works better at your track, but tire B works better at another track so you've got to buy tires just to be competitive somewhere else. If you want to save guys money in racing you have to take traction away. Period. And better tires definitely don't do that.

[sirleafalot]

Great discussion, as mention ump will not tech stubs and they are not even capable of doing so, I fear stubs would get out of hand rapidly. But yes stubs and tires are something are real sanction should look to change. Ump can't even get the rules out before the season

[Bcollins82]

Whats wrong with the Chinese stamped chevelle clips? If you want a tube clip get a late model.

What's the difference between a fabricated Chinese Chevelle clip and a fabricated tube clip that accepts stock parts? The only difference I can tell would be if the manufacturer of the fab clip provides a way to tech them. Otherwise, they could just make them accept the stock parts that everyone is already using and set a measurement to the outside of the front tires...

[Lizardracing]

I don't pretend to know everything but I'd think if one of those companies would make a tire that lasted longer and had more speed in it at the lower cost than every racer would be buying that tire. If that tire would work well everywhere that even better. Right now in my opinion, the UMP is a expensive crappy tire. That makes sense if you compare that tire to the rest of the rules, policing, policies, procedures, etc...We haven't discussed the number of racers who would buy the lesser expensive tire just to play on. Theres more guys like me who have only won a time or two buy pure luck or just race for fun and comraderey. I'd argue that most of the guy out there racing weekly and locally. What would be more fun? Ten teams with nearly bottomless budgets or 100 running cheap parts and cars?
Around here, the lower classes are dominating the number game for this very reason I believe. It's still affordable.
I suppose in this case the "people" need to stop going to UMP tracks and force the tracks to use a different governing body like USRA/USMTS/IMCA and others. Or perhaps some one should step up and create their own and lobby the tracks to the benefits of that rule set. I wish I could be that person but as a single dad now that's not really in the cards for me most likely.
I agree with racers being their own worst enemy and as long as UMP is tolerated it's going to be a thing. We the racer still have the power to change it if they really want to. As far as Im concerned, if you write in a rule, don't police it, your better off just not having one.

[Bcollins82]

Clearly fabricated would be lighter.

If there were no advantage there would be no reason to want one.

Anyone can make a few fixtures to "measure points on the Chinese clips now" nobody chooses to do so.

We addressed the weight issue a few posts ago, the manufacturer would have a weight spec the same as a factory clip to eliminate that advantage. The advantage to the chassis builder not fighting the junk China parts, and the advantage to the racer would be better tech if it's enforced, and hopefully a chassis that doesn't bend frame horns quite as easily. They absolutely could figure out a way to tech the China clips, but I'm betting most sanctioning bodies are worried about running off cars that were built "out of spec"

[Bcollins82]

I don't pretend to know everything but I'd think if one of those companies would make a tire that lasted longer and had more speed in it at the lower cost than every racer would be buying that tire. If that tire would work well everywhere that even better. Right now in my opinion, the UMP is a expensive crappy tire. That makes sense if you compare that tire to the rest of the rules, policing, policies, procedures, etc...We haven't discussed the number of racers who would buy the lesser expensive tire just to play on. Theres more guys like me who have only won a time or two buy pure luck or just race for fun and comraderey. I'd argue that most of the guy out there racing weekly and locally. What would be more fun? Ten teams with nearly bottomless budgets or 100 running cheap parts and cars?
Around here, the lower classes are dominating the number game for this very reason I believe. It's still affordable.
I suppose in this case the "people" need to stop going to UMP tracks and force the tracks to use a different governing body like USRA/USMTS/IMCA and others. Or perhaps some one should step up and create their own and lobby the tracks to the benefits of that rule set. I wish I could be that person but as a single dad now that's not really in the cards for me most likely.
I agree with racers being their own worst enemy and as long as UMP is tolerated it's going to be a thing. We the racer still have the power to change it if they really want to. As far as Im concerned, if you write in a rule, don't police it, your better off just not having one.

If a company was to build a longer lasting tire that had more speed do you think it would stay cheap very long? And do you think it wouldn't be improved on by another company that would charge more? I feel the same as you about the UMP tires, especially since UMP has a tire the same size as the current D and A that will last longer and have more speed. The RC2 and RC4. Why don't they use those in UMP? Because they aren't about giving anyone a better tire, they are about selling more tires. Changing clips, running on hockey pucks, opening up the tire rule, whatever your point of view, it's just a drop in the bucket in the big picture. The only way you'll get more guys running UMP mods again is making it more affordable by taking away lots of traction so you don't have a huge engine bill and so you aren't ripping tires apart at the rate they are now. If I could make any change to the current rules I would limit down travel in the rear suspension to 2" limited by a solid chain on each side, and make a solid pull bar and no lift arm rule. Anyone with a flashlight, Jack, and tape measure could check it after a race when the car is being scaled. You could build a fixture to go on the wheel and check it if you wanted to take the tape measure out of the equation. How's that for a thread hijack? Lol

[RaceTechKs]

With all the trouble we just had this year with all the Chinese Clips and still do, because they still are not fixed like they should be and now someone don't want a Fabricated Stub..... These Chinese stubs have been narrowed, rolled, mounts moved, mounts changed not even stock, clipped trimmed for clearance, cut out and changed from the spring pockets forward, trimmed and narrowed from front to rear where they weld together as much as two inches. And then the chassis builders are allowed to come up with this BS plate deal to alter the hole placement so things seem to be in the correct place.....WHAT A JOKE. All that did was butcher the frames even further and make it even a BIGGER JOKE. But there are guys out there that say MY CHASSIS WAS FIXED.....BULL CRAP. The only way to fix the stubs that were narrowed is to remove the stub completely and replace it with an unaltered one or put back what was removed. And if that has not been done then that frame is not legal its as simple as that. And anyone who thinks I'm wrong, Terry Phillips openly admitted in an interview that "GRT had been messing with the frames and trying a few things to get an advantage over the competition for a while now". So I guess we see this year how many frames have been fixed correctly. As for tires, all a sanctioning body can do is pick a tire, ONE tire and that's what everyone uses. OH.... And I am all for the FAB STUB......

[Bcollins82]

How did you address the weight? You found builders who are going to build a fabricated clip with what 1/4 metal so it would weight the same?

Then it would be stronger and flex less and be a advantage. You just said you want it made stronger so it doesn't bend the horns, that would then not be the same as a chevelle clip it would be better. lol.

I thought this post was about ump now your lumping in all sanctioning bodies with them?

IMCA has specs and has measured them and made us fix our frames multiple times.

Yeah, it would be stiffer. Some believe that is a disadvantage. I'm not one personally, but nevertheless people still argue it either way. It would definitely be stronger, without a doubt. I did lump other sanctioning bodies in, but I do know for a fact UMP will skip busting someone in tech, give them "a week to fix it" then let it slide so they don't run racers away by making someone load up instead of fixing the issue to be legal like the others. It happens every week. That's great that IMCA is doing something about it. Do they actually measure the clips to be sure both sides are in stock location and haven't been moved in relation to each other? Or is it just a balljoint to frame rail measurement?

[Lizardracing]

"]If a company was to build a longer lasting tire that had more speed do you think it would stay cheap very long"

Yes of course they wouldn't!

And do you think it wouldn't be improved on by another company that would charge more?

Yes of course they would! Now imagine two or more companies making good tires that last a long time all trying to sell tires to a group of people. A lower price would give a company the advantage right? Then the other companies begin losing money because they can't sell tires and lower their price too. This is a called a price war which brings down the cost's of tires will driving innovation to make the their tire better. Now let's say you have multiple companies selling a great tire at about the same price but one is a A hole and the other provide great customer support. I don't think the customer is going to tolerate that too much so they buy from the nice guy. Now your getting a good tire, at a good price with good customer support. The tri-fecta!

I feel the same as you about the UMP tires, especially since UMP has a tire the same size as the current D and A that will last longer and have more speed. The RC2 and RC4. Why don't they use those in UMP? Because they aren't about giving anyone a better tire, they are about selling more tires.

I agree...and you have NO CHOICE.....which is my point. They charge what they want, they treat you like crap and you keep buying until you just can't take it anymore and quit racing altogether.


Changing clips, running on hockey pucks, opening up the tire rule, whatever your point of view, it's just a drop in the bucket in the big picture. The only way you'll get more guys running UMP mods again is making it more affordable by taking away lots of traction so you don't have a huge engine bill and so you aren't ripping tires apart at the rate they are now. If I could make any change to the current rules I would limit down travel in the rear suspension to 2" limited by a solid chain on each side, and make a solid pull bar and no lift arm rule. Anyone with a flashlight, Jack, and tape measure could check it after a race when the car is being scaled. You could build a fixture to go on the wheel and check it if you wanted to take the tape measure out of the equation. How's that for a thread hijack? Lol

I think we are making the same points here. We agree the cost is too high and corruption is too rampet. I don't think you can legislate your way to affordability however. That's what we have now and it's it's not really working to well is it? . A free market type system isn't perfect, but allowing some choices in would be a benefit I believe.