Making a living racing

[W2Racing09]

I was talking to a few people yesterday and we got on the discussion of the Sprint car drivers in PA who make a living (mostly) from racing. It seems somewhat easy in the 410s in this area, because between all the tour stops, the regular racing on Friday and Saturday weekly and the occasional Sunday shows you can race for a potential $10-$15k weekly to win.

I also recently read an article about Ricky Thornton Jr. out West who makes a living driving an IMCA Mod (not even sure how that is possible).

I'm wondering if it is possible, or if people are doing that in the Late Model ranks. It does not seem like it would be very easy. I know there are some people with money who primarily do that, but are they making enough to get by if they were not already sitting on massive stacks of cash? With all of the costs it does not really seem possible, at least not realistically. Is there anyone with a more realistic view of the finances and the potential behind this type of living?

I just thought it was an interesting topic, it certainly has been possible in the past -- but with the way racing is right now I don't think it would really be possible. But I could be wrong!

Thanks,
Jeff.

[oldfart50]

Without someone footing the bills you cant make a living racing. Engine cost these days is about $100.00 a lap.

[W2Racing09]

Without someone footing the bills you cant make a living racing. Engine cost these days is about $100.00 a lap.

That is a crazy amount. I was watching practice from East bay last night and there were cars (Nick Davis and Kyle Bronson for instance) who were out there just hammering away lap after lap in practice. If they get 50 laps on those motors (that is a conservative estimate of what they had) that is almost $5,000.00? That seems really high, but I guess anything is possible in DLM racing.

When I am saying Late Models, I'm also thinking CLM racing as well. I know there are some big money races out there for those guys. If someone ran all divisions (even Mods) I wonder if they could piece together a schedule lucrative enough to sustain their operation. Kyle Bronson seems to do something like that, but he is one of the aforementioned guys sitting on stacks of cash.

[UMPDream]

Good Post Jeff.

Maybe someday, someone can make a living driving a dirt late model but not anytime soon. The biggest difference with the PA Posse and majority of the DLM teams is that the Posse has car owners that somehow, someway are able to afford the expense of operating a top notch organization. Maybe with Craftsman coming on board, teams may find it a little easier to go after other corporate dollars in justifying "why" they should invest their dollars in a dirt team.

[billetbirdcage]

I think the key to your conversation is what it was said (least the way I read your post): Drivers can make a decent living.

it's different for every team and varies a ton on what they get paid and what they are required to do as far as work or time involved. But if the driver is getting paid a percentage of winnings and he's not having to put money into the operation then a guy could make a living doing it if he does well enough.

As a car owner it's really tough unless you have sponsors/associates that are picking up a vast majority of the bills.

Note: The real average cost on a LM engine from a top engine builder is 10.00 a lap on rebuilds, give or take a little one way or the other but that is what they are costing in today's market

[W2Racing09]

I think the key to your conversation is what it was said (least the way I read your post): Drivers can make a decent living.

it's different for every team and varies a ton on what they get paid and what they are required to do as far as work or time involved. But if the driver is getting paid a percentage of winnings and he's not having to put money into the operation then a guy could make a living doing it if he does well enough.

As a car owner it's really tough unless you have sponsors/associates that are picking up a vast majority of the bills.

Note: The real average cost on a LM engine from a top engine builder is 10.00 a lap on rebuilds, give or take a little one way or the other but that is what they are costing in today's market

So it is closer to $500 for regular night of racing... Still a LOT of money. Especially considering how much is spent on tires, etc.

Lets say for instance this driver is the owner of the car, and has the knowledge to build and refresh his own engines (minus machine work, etc.) and fabricate and hang his own bodies, etc which saves a ton of money. Can said driver make it at that point? I'm still thinking it would be all but impossible. If you are to remain competitive you would need a new chassis at least every three years (assuming you just have one car and no backup). You would still need some type of crew help, and if you are making a living racing I'm sure there wouldn't be many people in line to volunteer their time to help you make your living free of charge. On top of that tires are a huge expense as well.

I think the key would be the ability to run in two classes wherever you went. Not incurring additional costs for travelling to the track, or your crew getting in but being able to run for two separate paydays could definitely make a big difference. Lets take Hagerstown Speedway for instance. If you could run the SLM and LLM class weekly at that track (a track that is somewhat easy on motors too given how slick the track is most nights) you would be able to race for a potential $2000-$2200 to win each night. If you are racing professional (technically that would be the case) you are likely to be better prepared than most of the people doing it for a hobby, so you should be able to finish top 5-8 each night at least (if not, then this person is not a very good candidate to be making a living based on their driving skills). If you can do that you should easily be able to bring home $1000 a night, and if you race two nights each week that is $2000 (that is assuming you don't win either division on either night). If the labor for your motor refresh is technically free (doing it yourself) and you are able to maintain your car week to week without hiring any help then I guess it is theoretically possible to do alright. Take away $1300 for operating expenses (tires, fuel, etc) and you are left with $700 on a bad week. That isn't counting weeks when you can run three times, weeks where the purses are increased, weeks that you win or finish top 3 in both classes that you run, point fund, sponsors, etc. Of course it also does not count wrecks and replacement costs of stuff in the off season.

It is also difficult to tell what the increasing popularity of Crate racing has for an effect on this situation. On one hand it definitely lowers engine costs and adds a bunch of decent paying races, but on the other hand it removes the option of someone with the knowledge and know to save money by building their own stuff. I think the best case scenario here is if you can run built motor classes.

It is definitely an interesting topic, and a good indicator of the health of Dirt Track Racing in my opinion.

EDIT: I guess after looking my post over and thinking about the purse structure it isn't necessarily easy to make $1000 per night finishing top 5 - 8. My best guess of the purse structure for each division would be

SLM
$1500
$900
$700
$600
$500
$400
$300
$250

LLM
$700
$500
$400
$300
$250
$200
$175
$150

So if you are finishing 8th in both classes you are making closer to $400 which is certainly not enough to make a living or even close to it considering expenses come out to much more than that.

[W2Racing09]

Another Facet to this would be, if the driver has the knowledge to work on race cars -- do they have time to sell their services? If you can hang the occasional body, refresh or build the occasional Street Stock motor, or other stuff that could definitely be the difference between Ramen or Ribeye on the table at the end of the night.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Another Facet to this would be, if the driver has the knowledge to work on race cars -- do they have time to sell their services? If you can hang the occasional body, refresh or build the occasional Street Stock motor, or other stuff that could definitely be the difference between Ramen or Ribeye on the table at the end of the night.

Doing racing services for other people isn't considered racing for a living.

[W2Racing09]

Doing racing services for other people isn't considered racing for a living.

I occasionally build websites to make a little bit of extra money on the side, but I don't list web designer as my occupation when I'm doing taxes. Doing a little bit of side work is pretty common, and as I said can make life a lot easier. I'm not saying it needs to be a requirement, but if someone were to choose to make a living by racing then it might make things a little easier to do some side work. Especially in the off season.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Hoosier]

Ronnie Sanders says: Racers have to spend $150 to win $100.

[Freezer19]

I would say right off the top the expectation to make a living purely off winnings would be a pipe dream. I believe if you look at your Late Model Team as a business you could have several profit centers: - winnings - be based in region such as Illinois where a Summernations or take advantage of speedweeks that allow consistent racing with limited travel time a possible points fund payout. Or a regions with short travel to big money races. Merchandise- - Parts Sales/repairs - I know several teams that do a great job selling new used parts to local teams, building bodies, clipping cars. Building customer cars. - consulting - this could be a great opportunity as knowledge is often the hardest thing to find without taking a lot of hardknocs along the way. But I know several guys who make money scaling cars throughout the year. - Sponsorship - this is always a touchy subject. But this can come a thousand ways wether it's just a product only deal or money. But cash is King. It kills me guys giving top billing to a industry sponsor for a product deal. When another driver is on the same deal and just has them as an associate on their car. Many assume these are big money deals but you put pen to paper and quickly realize it's barely a few thousand but drivers want to "look good" and don't realize they are giving away their product and people assume they are fully funded. I work in sales and own my own company. I know the money is out there for sponsorship opportunities, I am not claiming it's easy. But quickly I think of a wingless sprint car who has a 100k deal and has only won a few races in his CAREER. But he postioned himself properly with the company to give them the exposure they desired. I truly believe as a sport we do a poor job capitalizing on this. We can't just send out a 25 proposals and hope they call you will never work. I have 6 sitting on my desk now from race teams. I sponsor several cars now but the team I choose called me several times, invited me to several races on their dime as their guest introduced me to the team, drivers, etc. they then asked me what type of exposure I preffed: Internet, social media, trackside, tv, etc. None of these are easy. But with anything if your determined to succeed you can do it. You have to figure out the combo that fits you and your skill set. Smart racing would be import too ie your running 18th and it paid 1000 to start up to 10th pull off save he laps on your equipment if your not running for points

[Kromulous]

Not sure you guys have thought this thru, Bloomquist does it.

He owns all his stuff, and cars engines etc. Does he have a lot of help? Yes, sponsors etc, but at the end of the day the tab is on him. He won a lot, and that in turn brought in alot of money, aka sponsors. Thats racing thou.

Others? Moyer does i believe, but cant be sure. Again, alot of sponsors, but gained thru winning.

Can someone start out nowadays and do it? the deck is stacked, and not in your favor. You need to win, and gain sponsors quickly. Plus some starting out money would be essential. Alot of side money is to be made too, setting up cars, doing your own work, anything you can do to save a buck or make a buck you would need to do.

[Kromulous]

Frrezer19, good post.

Steve Kinser said he makes pennies compared to his wife, she ran the T-shirt and memorabilia portion of Steve Kinser racing.

[DoubleZero]

Richard Petty always maintained it cost him $2 to win $1.

[SuperEight]

I was talking to a few people yesterday and we got on the discussion of the Sprint car drivers in PA who make a living (mostly) from racing. It seems somewhat easy in the 410s in this area, because between all the tour stops, the regular racing on Friday and Saturday weekly and the occasional Sunday shows you can race for a potential $10-$15k weekly to win.

I also recently read an article about Ricky Thornton Jr. out West who makes a living driving an IMCA Mod (not even sure how that is possible).

I'm wondering if it is possible, or if people are doing that in the Late Model ranks. It does not seem like it would be very easy. I know there are some people with money who primarily do that, but are they making enough to get by if they were not already sitting on massive stacks of cash? With all of the costs it does not really seem possible, at least not realistically. Is there anyone with a more realistic view of the finances and the potential behind this type of living?

I just thought it was an interesting topic, it certainly has been possible in the past -- but with the way racing is right now I don't think it would really be possible. But I could be wrong!

Thanks,
Jeff.

With a few actual $$$ sponsors its doable if your really good and committed, like 24/7. A couple of decades back the car could pay its own way and have enough to live on, but engine costs have gone into orbit for DLM's. Now some guys in my area make it work by not strictly running Super, They mix it up with Super, Limited, CT525 & Crate. Like Rambo Franklin, he runs whatever kinda late model race is paying and close by. Davenport use to pull double duty alot and even won a big crate race to finish out his 2015 season driving some other dudes car. I think, here in the south anyway, we mainly only have Supers with traveling series and then Limiteds & Crates for weekly stuff that mixing it up engine wise can help make it pay. JMO

[W2Racing09]

With a few actual $$$ sponsors its doable if your really good and committed, like 24/7. A couple of decades back the car could pay its own way and have enough to live on, but engine costs have gone into orbit for DLM's. Now some guys in my area make it work by not strictly running Super, They mix it up with Super, Limited, CT525 & Crate. Like Rambo Franklin, he runs whatever kinda late model race is paying and close by. Davenport use to pull double duty alot and even won a big crate race to finish out his 2015 season driving some other dudes car. I think, here in the south anyway, we mainly only have Supers with traveling series and then Limiteds & Crates for weekly stuff that mixing it up engine wise can help make it pay. JMO

That definitely helps. Having access to each type of engine would be huge. Not just that though, with the new SEDMS series there are some high paying Mod races too. I would think it would be helpful to have a Mod to jump into at times as well. Racing as often as possible in as many divisions as possible would definitely be the key.

[luke81]

Someone early in the thread mentioned Bronson as an "example", and I gotta think that's just crazy talk. Yes I know he somehow scored himself a WoO win at Volusia last year, but I watch him race here in Florida on a weekly basis all year. He spends all year winning low purse races in his mod and crate car by having an owner who outspends the field 10-1. Even if he got 100% of the winnings and won every race he ran I doubt he'd make himself 30 grand a year down here. I don't mean it as a knock on his ability, it's more about the fact that he's racing against a field of 15-ish cars every week - 11 of which are probably running used tires and tired engines and he's driving a best-of-the-best car every week.

[stevo]

It cost Petty someone $2 for him to win $1

[DoubleZero]

Exactly. Gotta have the someone.

[huskerdirt]

I would say right off the top the expectation to make a living purely off winnings would be a pipe dream. I believe if you look at your Late Model Team as a business you could have several profit centers: - winnings - be based in region such as Illinois where a Summernations or take advantage of speedweeks that allow consistent racing with limited travel time a possible points fund payout. Or a regions with short travel to big money races. Merchandise- - Parts Sales/repairs - I know several teams that do a great job selling new used parts to local teams, building bodies, clipping cars. Building customer cars. - consulting - this could be a great opportunity as knowledge is often the hardest thing to find without taking a lot of hardknocs along the way. But I know several guys who make money scaling cars throughout the year. - Sponsorship - this is always a touchy subject. But this can come a thousand ways wether it's just a product only deal or money. But cash is King. It kills me guys giving top billing to a industry sponsor for a product deal. When another driver is on the same deal and just has them as an associate on their car. Many assume these are big money deals but you put pen to paper and quickly realize it's barely a few thousand but drivers want to "look good" and don't realize they are giving away their product and people assume they are fully funded. I work in sales and own my own company. I know the money is out there for sponsorship opportunities, I am not claiming it's easy. But quickly I think of a wingless sprint car who has a 100k deal and has only won a few races in his CAREER. But he postioned himself properly with the company to give them the exposure they desired. I truly believe as a sport we do a poor job capitalizing on this. We can't just send out a 25 proposals and hope they call you will never work. I have 6 sitting on my desk now from race teams. I sponsor several cars now but the team I choose called me several times, invited me to several races on their dime as their guest introduced me to the team, drivers, etc. they then asked me what type of exposure I preffed: Internet, social media, trackside, tv, etc. None of these are easy. But with anything if your determined to succeed you can do it. You have to figure out the combo that fits you and your skill set. Smart racing would be import too ie your running 18th and it paid 1000 to start up to 10th pull off save he laps on your equipment if your not running for points

Excellent post!!!!