Flipping cars & injuries

[chathamracefan]

Just wanted to throw out a question to get some ideas on what can be done to slow the cars down &/or make them less prone to flipping. Seems this year there has been a rash of nasty ones with some driver injuries to boot. I saw the Eric Wells crash at the PDC & it was as vicious a flip as I've seen in a late model. I know tacky track conditions as well as some track layouts with open corners are a factor, but it seems the cars are getting much more prone to sprint car type flips in recent years.

Seems like something might need to be done as some of the tracks really aren't "flip worthy" if you will in terms of the barriers & fencing they have. I'm by no means an expert, just a fan & curious of other's thoughts on this.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

it may just be that the internet has broadened our information so much that we know about more flips because we are aware of more races, but we used to go to 5-10 HAT races a year, as well as alot of unsanctioned big races and SAS races in East Tenn and Ga. and I too don't remember very many flips at all. In fact, I have only ever seen just a couple.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

I also wonder if it's the suspension they run today. I don't know if I just didnt notice it years ago, but it seems that now, almost every car looks like the front end suspension is broken, they way they lay over so much on the right side.
I think stiffening up the right sides would probably help. Keep cars on top of the tracks a bit more.

[flagone]

It is absolutely contributed to by the suspensions of today. Tied down right fronts and pinned up left rears - the car is in a constant state of yaw with the nose as close to track as possible. All it takes is that nose to dig in a little bit and they are flipping. The cars have gotten faster and the only things that have really changed the last 3 years is the aero stuff and suspensions. The suspensions changed to help the aero.

I am NOT against technology or ingenuity but I believe if we took all the aero out of the equation we would see less flips and slower speeds which would equate to less injuries. I get attacked every time I say it but its a fact we are going too fast for the cars we have. And everyone that jumps on me says we should make the cars better and improve safety equipment. And that is all well and good but what about the 20,000 cars that are already out there? Is everyone going to go and buy a new car that is beefed up for higher speeds? Or are they just going to quit because they already won't spend the money to have a $800 fire suppression system or a good 3 layer suit. Taking the aero away costs very little to nothing really. Get the nose back where it was in 2003 or 2004. Floppers flat. Bodies flat. Make the doors the same height on both sides. It really wouldn't take a lot.

[MRM]

Good points Kelley. I think less people will complain about slowing the cars down and/or doing away with some of the aero stuff if more and more drivers continue to have these awful looking accidents and even miss time due to injuries.

[ironboss]

I agree...it is time to reign in some of the aero tricks with new body rules especially when it comes to the nose, sail panels, and uniform doors and sides. Things have got a little out of control the last 2-3 years.

[Cardirt0]

Good points Kelley. I think less people will complain about slowing the cars down and/or doing away with some of the aero stuff if more and more drivers continue to have these awful looking accidents and even miss time due to injuries.

On top of that I think the racing would Improve....All this Aero Make me think of WoO sprint cars Train racing...

[Cardirt0]

I know some get mad with me when I Bring up Nascar, but Aero is what is killing them if you ask me...Put the cars back too were the drivers have too drive them...Not all this Balls too the walls power slide $hit...Whens the last time you seen someone win running down the center of the track...
Add
Think how meany times CJ Rayburn has said all this High end Frame $hit is going too Kill racing...He should all so add or Kill a driver..

[Welder89]

I was standing beside Steve Francis at the north south when a guy came over to do an interview with him. He said he would love to see the series make a one linear spring per corner of the car, no stacks or bump stops. I'm pretty sure he also said he would like for a rule on working tires, think he said he would like to take away grooving and siphing. Which I think would take a lot more of the R&D out of setting one up. I mean kudos to those who can gain an advantage and know what they are doing when it comes to the spring smasher/shock dyno or tire selection. You hate to take away an advantage that some teams have figured out. But I mean look at the amount of time , effort and money some of these drivers/crew members spend on just working tires and testing stuff on the shock dynos. I just think it would take some of hard work out of week to week racing and allow guys to go home more or have more down time and bring back something that you very rarely see in the pits and that's crews having fun and enjoying what they are doing. Everybody wants to win and have success but you gotta throw some fun in there somewhere.

[Cardirt0]

I was standing beside Steve Francis at the north south when a guy came over to do an interview with him. He said he would love to see the series make a one linear spring per corner of the car, no stacks or bump stops. I'm pretty sure he also said he would like for a rule on working tires, think he said he would like to take away grooving and siphing. Which I think would take a lot more of the R&D out of setting one up. I mean kudos to those who can gain an advantage and know what they are doing when it comes to the spring smasher/shock dyno or tire selection. You hate to take away an advantage that some teams have figured out. But I mean look at the amount of time , effort and money some of these drivers/crew members spend on just working tires and testing stuff on the shock dynos. I just think it would take some of hard work out of week to week racing and allow guys to go home more or have more down time and bring back something that you very rarely see in the pits and that's crews having fun and enjoying what they are doing. Everybody wants to win and have success but you gotta throw some fun in there somewhere.

Here Here I stopped helping .. First the Guy I helped Became a $hit head.. But It was i was working so hard i forgot Why i was there.....Just was not fun no more...Went back too watching...

[tb1545]

i really think taking away the front splitters on the noses, the fins on the front fenders, and reducing the rear spoiler height would be great aero changes to help reduce the downforce on both ends of the cars. I think its a needed step, but i dont think it would prevent most of the flips. as flagone said, most of it is due to the hiked chassis suspensions. If we would find a way get off of some of this coilbinding/bump stop asphalt type suspensions, i think racing would be able to improve a lot and be safer.

[smith19]

gonna have to start running a wing...j/k

[mopar92]

I believe before changing the cars, look at blunt walls, start checking for guys that are racing 10 year old helmets in seats held in by 2 bolts. There's a whole lot more of the locals getting injured than the big guys. I bet there is way more than we know getting hurt in pony cars etc. I still see guys racing pony cars in tee shirts and wearing a 12 year old helmet with no gloves. Heaven only knows the age and condition of the seat belts in the car. It starts with a safety standard and tracks putting a little effort into it. One track I race at has giant tractor tires filled with dirt protecting a blunt wall. There's a few things wrong with that.

[Bubstr]

I have to disagree with Areo being the culprit that rolls cars over. It keeps them down. What rolls them over is higher centers of gravity, from LR hike and over all raising weight for better weight transfer for forward and side bite. Is it easier to push a refrigerator over by pushing at the bottom or top? Your center of gravity is where forces push. If you raise that point, the car will tumble easier. Fairly simple. Remember the old flat running cars? They slid a lot more. Now that they get up in the air, they get more than their wish for side bite at times. There is your problem. How do you fix it, when everyone runs on the edge.?

[Cardirt0]

I have to disagree with Areo being the culprit that rolls cars over. It keeps them down. What rolls them over is higher centers of gravity, from LR hike and over all raising weight for better weight transfer for forward and side bite. Is it easier to push a refrigerator over by pushing at the bottom or top? Your center of gravity is where forces push. If you raise that point, the car will tumble easier. Fairly simple. Remember the old flat running cars? They slid a lot more. Now that they get up in the air, they get more than their wish for side bite at times. There is your problem. How do you fix it, when everyone runs on the edge.?

And that Refrigerator is now a 1/3 of the way flipped when they on the gas..some cars are 1 foot or more higher on the drivers side now...Nose digs in tire digs in you gone...Its not Areo...

[Josh Bayko]

And that Refrigerator is now a 1/3 of the way flipped when they on the gas..some cars are 1 foot or more higher on the drivers side now...Nose digs in tire digs in you gone...Its not Areo...

Modern setups are the way way they are because of the aerodynamics a late model brings. If you took away some of that aero, the setups would go away, because the cars would be tighter than bull's a*shole.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

I don't know a ton about weight and setups, but didn't oval racers used to want the weight as low and furthest left as they could get it?

[billetbirdcage]

I don't know a ton about weight and setups, but didn't oval racers used to want the weight as low and furthest left as they could get it?

NO!


Too me what has changed most is the speed into the corner, thus more likely to flip on some tracks with character.

Name one person that has flipped that wasn't on entry to the middle of the corner?

[billetbirdcage]

It is absolutely contributed to by the suspensions of today. Tied down right fronts and pinned up left rears - the car is in a constant state of yaw with the nose as close to track as possible. All it takes is that nose to dig in a little bit and they are flipping. The cars have gotten faster and the only things that have really changed the last 3 years is the aero stuff and suspensions. The suspensions changed to help the aero.

I am NOT against technology or ingenuity but I believe if we took all the aero out of the equation we would see less flips and slower speeds which would equate to less injuries. I get attacked every time I say it but its a fact we are going too fast for the cars we have. And everyone that jumps on me says we should make the cars better and improve safety equipment. And that is all well and good but what about the 20,000 cars that are already out there? Is everyone going to go and buy a new car that is beefed up for higher speeds? Or are they just going to quit because they already won't spend the money to have a $800 fire suppression system or a good 3 layer suit. Taking the aero away costs very little to nothing really. Get the nose back where it was in 2003 or 2004. Floppers flat. Bodies flat. Make the doors the same height on both sides. It really wouldn't take a lot.

Not really disagreeing with you Kelley but sort of hard to make a difference with the body rules when most can't enforce the body rules we have now.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Flipping is going to happen, it's racing and that means speed. A conventional suspension before the invention of J bars would do a lot to help. Going back to the suspensions of around 1980 is something I would like to see.

But if you want to slow cars down to stop rollovers that would take a lot. And who wants to go watch snail races?