Safety equipment and accident question involving Eldora fatality

[RacerX10]

My old rayburn swing arm car had a right side mounted panhard bar. It was terrible in the corners (couldn't ever get side bite on a dry track), but it did go fast in a straight line

[MachineMasters]

" I've seen a leaf spring car out run a field full of the best 4 link DLM's driven by the best elite drivers in the country, at 2 different tracks on back 2 back nights."

Please elaborate - would like to hear the winner's name and some of the drivers that were beat by a leaf spring car at two tracks like that. A story like that is great, but it means nothing if not less than nothing without proof (in my opinion). What tracks were they and approximately what year?

[Stede Bonnet]

My old rayburn swing arm car had a right side mounted pan-hard bar. It was terrible in the corners (couldn't ever get side bite on a dry track), but it did go fast in a straight line

Rayburn(Swing Arm/Bud-Bar) cars do have a reputation for being that way, I've heard it said, "They'll slide till you hit something", but we had good success with ours. I worked for a team that sold Rayburn's and built a Rayburn inspired car in-house(KMRC/Yellow Jacket). We used the Right side pan-hard bar(Bud-Bar) on every car we ran or built and we never had an issue with side bite, but I had the advantage of my day job being that I worked for Carrera Racing Shocks in Atlanta, so I had access to the latest technology at the time. Its vital to see the whole package in order to achieve its FULL potential. Thanks for input.

[zeroracing]

I am not saying your wrong, but comparing results from multiple years ago to today is not apple to oranges, shocks and cars have developed more and more. That said, the answer is simple, racers will want whatever is faster, if you made a car that the right side hiked up and it carried the RF off the ground but was 1 second a lap faster everybody would buy one. I am looking forward to seeing what your working on, I like any advancement in racing so if it is faster or as fast but easier on parts it will get my attention as well as any other racer. Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing the new creation, just feel the 4 bar currently is king for a strong reason.

[MachineMasters]

to me, if you can make a rayburn/swingarm/budbar/outdated type of car work in today's age, congratulations - you're smarter than every other full-time professional team and chassis builder in the country.

the guys that race for a living, and build cars for a living, are going to race and build whatever is going to make them the most money (wins).

even with the trend of buying speed, surely some of the professionals can think for themselves..

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

to me, if you can make a rayburn/swingarm/budbar/outdated type of car work in today's age, congratulations - you're smarter than every other full-time professional team and chassis builder in the country.

the guys that race for a living, and build cars for a living, are going to race and build whatever is going to make them the most money (wins).

even with the trend of buying speed, surely some of the professionals can think for themselves..

I think we learned last year that intelligent, original, thinking has been missing in the sport.

[CCHIEF]

"I think we learned last year that intelligent, original, thinking has been missing in the sport." ............And was quashed by the powers that be. I believe it's not good for the continued, productive evolution of SLM racing.

[billetbirdcage]

On top of halo I've welded in expanded metal covering the top to keep cage from sinking into track surface during roll over in case roof becomes detached .

You might want to rethink that. I seriously doubt you will be able to get a containment seat in the car with the top of the halo covered with expanded metal. It's hard enough to get them in some cars with nothing on top as many won't go thru the side window in my experience and I'm not talking huge seats for large guys.

[Stede Bonnet]

" I've seen a leaf spring car out run a field full of the best 4 link DLM's driven by the best elite drivers in the country, at 2 different tracks on back 2 back nights."

Please elaborate - would like to hear the winner's name and some of the drivers that were beat by a leaf spring car at two tracks like that. A story like that is great, but it means nothing if not less than nothing without proof (in my opinion). What tracks were they and approximately what year?

Pre-Hook:
1995 HavATampa races
Driver: Stan Massey Won $50K for the weekend
Tracks: Dixie Speedway & Rome Speedway
Competitors: Scott Bloomquist, Ronnie Johnson, Mark Miner, Freddy Smith, Skip Arp, Bill Frye, Dale McDowell, Wendell Wallace and all the other HAT regulars of that era.

I realize this is, "Pre-Hook" but the popular belief at that time was a mono-leaf/coil car was out of date and not competitive against the cutting edge 4 link & Swing Arm cars, especially on a slick track like Dixie was at that time. Rome the next night was the polar opposite, fast, high banked and tacky. My point is that this was not suppose to happen according to conventional wisdom of the time and he nearly did it at Cleveland Speedway against the same collection of competition as well, running second to the Southern Gentleman. So just because something is popular and the accepted pinnacle of technology doesn't mean it is "The End all, Be all". This is merely an example of conventional wisdom or popular belief being proven wrong.

Early Hook:
Another example was in the Late 90's early 00's, after "The Hook" became all the rage, a friend of mine had a Walter Newman car(1996) combo car that he ran conventional with a steel block/aluminum head 358. Buck Simmons and Casey Roberts both drove this car and both had multiple victories in it against the, "On The Hook" cars like Jack Pennington and Tim Headen and others. We took it to the National 100 @ EAMS one year with Buck and after our heat, Steve Francis came by to look under the car because Buck was pulling him off the corners pretty good. If not for an incorrect tire choice and a HP deficiency I believe we could have had a better final result. Later on when Buck changed teams to drive the John Deere car, I went with him and we started out with Rayburn's and won races, before switching to GRT's in late 2001. I've worked on both, won races with both.

[CCHIEF]

That is ancient history (pre hook), period!

[CCHIEF]

I'm 50 ....and been involved and schooled in racing DLM's for 30 years, and still hit the track with off the beaten path stuff ....on testing occasions.

[Bubstr]

I have been around race cars of some sort since the middle 50s. Side bite has always been about center of gravity height and how it transferred weight from one tire to another. Working on a Midget in the fifty's, it got pretty simple. You raise the overall weight of the car, till it bicycled and then lowered it a bit. I think the big thing about why there are so many tumbles today, is we forgot the lowering it a bit part. It doesn't matter what kind of bars ,leafs, coils or what ever they have, everyone has the same physics going on. I think one of the reasons a higher roll center or anti squat values is desirable, is because they work together. More side bite equals more forward bite, because of the higher center of gravity. It's just a matter of saying when enough is enough. The.other part that is causing these tumbles, is the front bumper is close enough to the ground, to catch a berm and start things in motion. It's a given, that everyone likes to keep as much air from going under the car as they can. Stands to reason, some kind of a ski could help this with out letting air under. Simple, not sure how effective. I always say try the simple and cheap solutions first. What do you guys think?

[MachineMasters]

1995 - 2016.. that's 21 years. And before the LR shock behind.

I remember putting a whooping on an entire field of cars back in 1984. Everyone was on leaf springs, and by everyone, I mean there were some really good quality drivers there, and I smoked them with my panhard bar equipped link suspension car.

I can make fun statements, too...

Getting back to the point - modern dirt cars are not safe. Right side exit needs to happen for EVERYBODY, with helmet and head and neck restraint on. Until this happens, we're going to continue injuring people, burning people, or worse..

[Stede Bonnet]

...Getting back to the point - modern dirt cars are not safe. Right side exit needs to happen for EVERYBODY, with helmet and head and neck restraint on. Until this happens, we're going to continue injuring people, burning people, or worse..

I agree with this. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the rest.

[Stede Bonnet]

Just got an update from someone close to the family that Shane did NOT have a head, neck or spinal injury, so it appears his head/helmet didn't make contact with the wall, as had been speculated. Internal injuries was listed as the cause. Frame was said to be about 6" out of square and damage was focused around LR 4 bar bracket area. Just an unfortunate situation all around. Even though my ideas and desires to build a safer car weren't all met with the reception or dialog I had hoped for, I'm gonna keep working. On to the next topic I suppose.

[a25rjr]

Pre-Hook:
1995 HavATampa races
Driver: Stan Massey Won $50K for the weekend
Tracks: Dixie Speedway & Rome Speedway
Competitors: Scott Bloomquist, Ronnie Johnson, Mark Miner, Freddy Smith, Skip Arp, Bill Frye, Dale McDowell, Wendell Wallace and all the other HAT regulars of that era.

I realize this is, "Pre-Hook" but the popular belief at that time was a mono-leaf/coil car was out of date and not competitive against the cutting edge 4 link & Swing Arm cars, especially on a slick track like Dixie was at that time. Rome the next night was the polar opposite, fast, high banked and tacky. My point is that this was not suppose to happen according to conventional wisdom of the time and he nearly did it at Cleveland Speedway against the same collection of competition as well, running second to the Southern Gentleman. So just because something is popular and the accepted pinnacle of technology doesn't mean it is "The End all, Be all". This is merely an example of conventional wisdom or popular belief being proven wrong.

Early Hook:
Another example was in the Late 90's early 00's, after "The Hook" became all the rage, a friend of mine had a Walter Newman car(1996) combo car that he ran conventional with a steel block/aluminum head 358. Buck Simmons and Casey Roberts both drove this car and both had multiple victories in it against the, "On The Hook" cars like Jack Pennington and Tim Headen and others. We took it to the National 100 @ EAMS one year with Buck and after our heat, Steve Francis came by to look under the car because Buck was pulling him off the corners pretty good. If not for an incorrect tire choice and a HP deficiency I believe we could have had a better final result. Later on when Buck changed teams to drive the John Deere car, I went with him and we started out with Rayburn's and won races, before switching to GRT's in late 2001. I've worked on both, won races with both.

Was Stan driving for Marvin Harris then?....If so, EPJ won several races in one of Marvins mono-leaf Warriors!

Marvin had a few tricks up his sleeve! lol

[Stede Bonnet]

Was Stan driving for Marvin Harris then?....If so, EPJ won several races in one of Marvins mono-leaf Warriors!

Marvin had a few tricks up his sleeve! lol

No, it was RSD Enterprises(Ronnie Dobbins), Shane Clanton's old team. Malcuit powered Mastersbilt and Mark Miner was his team mate.

Thank you, for your inquiry and enthusiasm.

[old fan]

and Mark still races once in a while

[Krooser]

old fan has been on the leading edge of seat design for the past several years... he's even got a new design that 'flips up'...