Concussions, Full Containments Seats and a bouncing ball.

[Stede Bonnet]

I wanted to raise a topic and share a few thoughts on some safety topics that became hot this season and share some things I've learned and my point of view. Tonight I was watching a Ted talk on concussions and some of the data that has been collected with sensors placed in mouth guards of Stanford football players. The data recorded shows very precisely the movements of the head and how the brain most likely is injured. Now I had always assumed and was led to believe a concussion was primarily the result of the head stopping abruptly, like striking your head on cement and then the brain striking the inside of the skull damaging the surface of the brain where it struck the skull. There is a video on the CDC website that demonstrates this theory, however the Stanford study has a shown this to be inaccurate. What the data showed was that one, the damage actually takes place near the center of the brain and two it is primarily the result of a whiplash effect, not a singular impact.

This got me to thinking about at least 2 of the racers I know that have had concussion injuries this year, Dale Jr. and Brian Shirley. Both of these drivers I'm fairly certain use "Full Containment" seats, I know junior does for sure. So how can this be? How can both drivers get concussions and be running the best safety equipment money can buy? Dale races upwards of 200mph, but Brian's wreck wasn't nearly that fast. Brian didn't even strike a wall or fixed object, just rolled over several times and not even the most violent I've ever seen. Some will argue, "It's speed, It's speed, they're just going too fast", but I'm not so sure that's the culprit. In human culture it seems to be we knee-jerk react when bad things happen, desperately hoping to avoid a repeated incident. Too many times in our rush to fix things we make them worse. I don't want to see us rush and make things worse.

I've been involved in DLM racing since 86', concussions and rollovers were non-existent for nearly the first 12 years of my involvement, but with technology and setup evolution, now the cars more easily pop over. From 98'-08' the cars became more prone to turn over, but still concussions weren't that common. Then came the "Full Containment Seat" craze. I've never liked them in DLM's because they make exiting the car under perfect conditions difficult, I can't imagine what its like upside down or with fire! Tonight watching the TED talk and seeing the data showing the head whipping back and forth I had an epiphany. Have you ever been playing basketball or with any bouncing type ball and have it jump into a confined space and suddenly, caught in that space, it bounces violently shooting back and forth at tremendous speed. This made me think of some of these containment seat designs where your head/helmet in nestled in all cozy between 2 huge rubber pieces. Now imagine if the car rolled with your head in there, I imagine it would ricochet back and forth pretty violently like the ball did. I don't have any video to prove this or personal experience doing it, but to me it seems a logical possibility to explain why with more safety equipment we're getting more injuries.

You don't have to agree with me, but if you'd like to share a thought or two they are welcome, but lets not be hasty and start throwing around mandatory this and mandatory that because some things happened that were sad, horrific and upsetting. I read the recent article by Kelly Carlton in DLM magazine and I agree with most of it, like using fire suppression, but I'm not in favor of full containment seats. Most people who post on 4m don't even know what certain safety equipment is made for and what it can and can't do. Many times people have posted that mandating Hahns would fix everything, when that's only good for a straight ahead impact. It's late but I'll try and get the link to the TED talk for anyone interested.

[Dirt2727]

Was just saying the same thing tonight......agree 100%

[grt74]

I wanted to raise a topic and share a few thoughts on some safety topics that became hot this season and share some things I've learned and my point of view. Tonight I was watching a Ted talk on concussions and some of the data that has been collected with sensors placed in mouth guards of Stanford football players. The data recorded shows very precisely the movements of the head and how the brain most likely is injured. Now I had always assumed and was led to believe a concussion was primarily the result of the head stopping abruptly, like striking your head on cement and then the brain striking the inside of the skull damaging the surface of the brain where it struck the skull. There is a video on the CDC website that demonstrates this theory, however the Stanford study has a shown this to be inaccurate. What the data showed was that one, the damage actually takes place near the center of the brain and two it is primarily the result of a whiplash effect, not a singular impact.

This got me to thinking about at least 2 of the racers I know that have had concussion injuries this year, Dale Jr. and Brian Shirley. Both of these drivers I'm fairly certain use "Full Containment" seats, I know junior does for sure. So how can this be? How can both drivers get concussions and be running the best safety equipment money can buy? Dale races upwards of 200mph, but Brian's wreck wasn't nearly that fast. Brian didn't even strike a wall or fixed object, just rolled over several times and not even the most violent I've ever seen. Some will argue, "It's speed, It's speed, they're just going too fast", but I'm not so sure that's the culprit. In human culture it seems to be we knee-jerk react when bad things happen, desperately hoping to avoid a repeated incident. Too many times in our rush to fix things we make them worse. I don't want to see us rush and make things worse.

I've been involved in DLM racing since 86', concussions and rollovers were non-existent for nearly the first 12 years of my involvement, but with technology and setup evolution, now the cars more easily pop over. From 98'-08' the cars became more prone to turn over, but still concussions weren't that common. Then came the "Full Containment Seat" craze. I've never liked them in DLM's because they make exiting the car under perfect conditions difficult, I can't imagine what its like upside down or with fire! Tonight watching the TED talk and seeing the data showing the head whipping back and forth I had an epiphany. Have you ever been playing basketball or with any bouncing type ball and have it jump into a confined space and suddenly, caught in that space, it bounces violently shooting back and forth at tremendous speed. This made me think of some of these containment seat designs where your head/helmet in nestled in all cozy between 2 huge rubber pieces. Now imagine if the car rolled with your head in there, I imagine it would ricochet back and forth pretty violently like the ball did. I don't have any video to prove this or personal experience doing it, but to me it seems a logical possibility to explain why with more safety equipment we're getting more injuries.

You don't have to agree with me, but if you'd like to share a thought or two they are welcome, but lets not be hasty and start throwing around mandatory this and mandatory that because some things happened that were sad, horrific and upsetting. I read the recent article by Kelly Carlton in DLM magazine and I agree with most of it, like using fire suppression, but I'm not in favor of full containment seats. Most people who post on 4m don't even know what certain safety equipment is made for and what it can and can't do. Many times people have posted that mandating Hahns would fix everything, when that's only good for a straight ahead impact. It's late but I'll try and get the link to the TED talk for anyone interested.

nascar is aware of this,look at the new containment seats and the impact foam (how thick it is)around the head area,i completely agree with the "bounce" effect but it leaves a concussion,with out a containment seat,a left side impact on the drivers door with out one can have very bad results or death (there have been videos where the helmet comes almost completely out of the window area) while i agree we can do better,dirt cars are going faster in features today and have more grip than ever,this equals speed and more control but when you loose control or get alot of grip all at once(cushion), its a bigger crash today

[A ron]

Take away that containment sent and who knows how bad those injuries could have been. I could be mistaken but it seems like consensus was that Jason Lefler might've lived if he'd been in a full containment seat.

[fastford]

i agree with your thoughts SB, although I doubt any seat manufacturers will, i do believe that the hans or similar type devices are a tremendous safety advantage though and none of my kids will climb in a race car with out one, JMO......

[HEAVY DUTY]

I have one of the best full containment seats. It was custom made for me, and was 1800 dollars. It has 4" of dense foam around the head rest. I race weekly at Tazewell which is probably the most banking of any dirt track in the country. Probably has more G forces than most tracks also. 3 times this year I have gotten a headache that lasted 2 or 3 days from my head hitting the seat, when hitting a hole.I wonder how bad it would be if I hit the wall. I am beginning to wonder if I would be better off with a seat that had a more flexible head support. I don't wear a Hans. I bought a new necksgen rev, and cannot wear it. I tried 2 times, and it gave me a terrible back ache. I don't know if they all do, but they are not an option for me if they all are like that. Sometimes I think we just need to slow the cars down. Maybe they are going faster than the human body can stand. We have more, and better safety equipment than in the past, but we have more drivers getting hurt.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Take away that containment sent and who knows how bad those injuries could have been. I could be mistaken but it seems like consensus was that Jason Lefler might've lived if he'd been in a full containment seat.

Every accident is different and simply accepting something is better is not the best way. Often, any type of improvement is meant to improve outcomes in a certain type of event. In other events, it could be a hindrance. It all comes down to what circumstance is most likely. In your passenger car, there are potential accident scenarios where being thrown from the car would save your life. Like a wreck where the top is collapsed. Most times, however, you would be better off with a seat belt.

A Hans, is meant to keep you from snapping your spinal cord off your head when you come to a sudden stop in a general straight line. I know of no dirt late model drivers who died that way.

The containment seat can certainly save you in some scenarios. Like when the drivers side hits the wall with high impact. Is it also causing concussion? Quite possibly.

[Stede Bonnet]

Take away that containment sent and who knows how bad those injuries could have been. I could be mistaken but it seems like consensus was that Jason Lefler might've lived if he'd been in a full containment seat.

According to the crew, Jason had full containment and Hahns... All the bells and whistles. The full containment craze has so taken hold that its the "end all-be all" that everyone just assumes if someone gets hurt they didn't have one and that their head struck the wall. Like the guy who died at Eldora this year, rumors were that his head struck the wall because he didn't have a full containment seat, which he didnt have a full containment seat, but the autopsy showed that he died of internal injuries(not a head or neck injury). I'd be willing to bet, if Brian Shirley had a regular seat with RS head rest he probably wouldn't have had a concussion at all. Roll overs aren't necessarily bad, they look bad, but all that rolling is dissipating energy gradually not suddenly.

I have one of the best full containment seats. It was custom made for me, and was 1800 dollars. It has 4" of dense foam around the head rest. I race weekly at Tazewell which is probably the most banking of any dirt track in the country. Probably has more G forces than most tracks also. 3 times this year I have gotten a headache that lasted 2 or 3 days from my head hitting the seat, when hitting a hole.I wonder how bad it would be if I hit the wall. I am beginning to wonder if I would be better off with a seat that had a more flexible head support.

This is what I'm talking about, your head stuck in a confined rubberized space ricocheting from side to side, according to the stanford concussion research it causes a shearing towards the center of the brain from rapid changes in direction. If it were me I'd contact the seat builder and see what they say and maybe consider getting a more conventional seat with a good head rest on the right side(Like Bloomquist uses) and put in a window net if you fearful of hitting the wall on the drivers side. I'm not a professional or trained in medicine, but you seemed to have answered the question exactly as I suspected. Your only doing yourself harm continuing to run it since you've already reported to having concussion like symptoms after hitting holes in the track. Just my opinion but you do what you think is best for you.

[Lizardracing]

A few years ago I got turned on corner entry and came to a full stop on the track with the nose facing down hill. Along came a friend and hit me square in the LS door bars. His bumper lifted the left side of the car and my body was compressed downward into the seat. The LS rib support got under my armpit and pulled my shoulder out of the socket and tore up all the attaching tissues that hold your arm on. I was out for many months.

Would a containment seat prevented that injury? I don't know but it got me thinking and I've came to the over all conclusion that any safety gear is dependent on technology, cost, practicality but most importantly, to REDUCE the chance of serious injury and not always to prevent ALL injury. A concussion is better than a Basilar Skull Fracture, A Dislocated Shoulder is better than then a concussion if my head hit the head support I didn't have and that sort of thing.
I like your way of thinking but it's a bit black and white on a very very gray matter.

I'd have to argue your facts about cars turning over more easily, concussions are up, equating football injuries to car racing injury's but I do like the fact your thinking about it and trying to have a respectful conversation about it.

[A ron]

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/na...-jason-leffler I'm not saying its true, just the first article that pops up. The HANS means nothing on side to side impacts. Just seems like to me on a numbers basis, I'd rather take my chances on a concussion vs a neck injury. Look at NASCAR. How many deaths have there been since the HANS and FC seat was implemented in 2001?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I don't think it is even up for debate if cars are turning over more. They are. It can be seen and obvious reasons can even be given.

[Renegade Cust Susp]

I wanted to raise a topic and share a few thoughts on some safety topics that became hot this season and share some things I've learned and my point of view. Tonight I was watching a Ted talk on concussions and some of the data that has been collected with sensors placed in mouth guards of Stanford football players. The data recorded shows very precisely the movements of the head and how the brain most likely is injured. Now I had always assumed and was led to believe a concussion was primarily the result of the head stopping abruptly, like striking your head on cement and then the brain striking the inside of the skull damaging the surface of the brain where it struck the skull. There is a video on the CDC website that demonstrates this theory, however the Stanford study has a shown this to be inaccurate. What the data showed was that one, the damage actually takes place near the center of the brain and two it is primarily the result of a whiplash effect, not a singular impact.

This got me to thinking about at least 2 of the racers I know that have had concussion injuries this year, Dale Jr. and Brian Shirley. Both of these drivers I'm fairly certain use "Full Containment" seats, I know junior does for sure. So how can this be? How can both drivers get concussions and be running the best safety equipment money can buy? Dale races upwards of 200mph, but Brian's wreck wasn't nearly that fast. Brian didn't even strike a wall or fixed object, just rolled over several times and not even the most violent I've ever seen. Some will argue, "It's speed, It's speed, they're just going too fast", but I'm not so sure that's the culprit. In human culture it seems to be we knee-jerk react when bad things happen, desperately hoping to avoid a repeated incident. Too many times in our rush to fix things we make them worse. I don't want to see us rush and make things worse.

I've been involved in DLM racing since 86', concussions and rollovers were non-existent for nearly the first 12 years of my involvement, but with technology and setup evolution, now the cars more easily pop over. From 98'-08' the cars became more prone to turn over, but still concussions weren't that common. Then came the "Full Containment Seat" craze. I've never liked them in DLM's because they make exiting the car under perfect conditions difficult, I can't imagine what its like upside down or with fire! Tonight watching the TED talk and seeing the data showing the head whipping back and forth I had an epiphany. Have you ever been playing basketball or with any bouncing type ball and have it jump into a confined space and suddenly, caught in that space, it bounces violently shooting back and forth at tremendous speed. This made me think of some of these containment seat designs where your head/helmet in nestled in all cozy between 2 huge rubber pieces. Now imagine if the car rolled with your head in there, I imagine it would ricochet back and forth pretty violently like the ball did. I don't have any video to prove this or personal experience doing it, but to me it seems a logical possibility to explain why with more safety equipment we're getting more injuries.

You don't have to agree with me, but if you'd like to share a thought or two they are welcome, but lets not be hasty and start throwing around mandatory this and mandatory that because some things happened that were sad, horrific and upsetting. I read the recent article by Kelly Carlton in DLM magazine and I agree with most of it, like using fire suppression, but I'm not in favor of full containment seats. Most people who post on 4m don't even know what certain safety equipment is made for and what it can and can't do. Many times people have posted that mandating Hahns would fix everything, when that's only good for a straight ahead impact. It's late but I'll try and get the link to the TED talk for anyone interested.

As someone who knows personally the aids of a full containment seat from my time racing non wing sprint cars in Indiana and crashing them a few times, this idea that a full containment seat is a bad idea because of the possibility of a concussion is asinine at best. If chance of injury is your concern you may want to find a safer sport. Drivers, any and all will be glad to have a concussion from and overly rigid seat as apposed to the alternative of there helmet hitting a concrete wall or (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit sections of sheet metal which have in recent times proven to be WAY more dangerous than a concussion. There are inherent risks in what we do but you are dissecting the micro to sacrifice the macro.

Is it possible that some full containment seats are too rigid causing the problem absolutely, but to suggest all versions of this device are unsafe is a bit much.

The seat will help protect you in a lateral impact something a hans has proven not to do.
Many other factors should be taken into account, do we know for a fact that junior or Brian's helmets fit 100% correctly to prevent as much trauma as possible, it's likely they did fit but does anyone truely know?
Just my .02 cents

[HEAVY DUTY]

I think that full containment seats are a must, but I also think that the rigidity of the head rest should be looked at. Maybe they should be allowed to move slightly, maybe spring loaded or something so that your head doesn't bounce violently off the seat. It is apparent that the dense foam might not be enough to cushion the impact. I had a friend who broke his neck flipping a mod that had the old clamp to the roll cage head support that used the steering wheel center pad. They were too rigid also. I always figured that his body shifting to the right while his head was against that rigid head support is what broke his neck.

[fastford]

Every accident is different and simply accepting something is better is not the best way. Often, any type of improvement is meant to improve outcomes in a certain type of event. In other events, it could be a hindrance. It all comes down to what circumstance is most likely. In your passenger car, there are potential accident scenarios where being thrown from the car would save your life. Like a wreck where the top is collapsed. Most times, however, you would be better off with a seat belt.

A Hans, is meant to keep you from snapping your spinal cord off your head when you come to a sudden stop in a general straight line. I know of no dirt late model drivers who died that way.

The containment seat can certainly save you in some scenarios. Like when the drivers side hits the wall with high impact. Is it also causing concussion? Quite possibly.

a girl down in florida, several years back , in a pony car got turned and hit the wall head on , neck snapped and shes dead,i think the hans might have saved her. im not fully sold on the containment seat for my self, but my daughter wears a hans and if she wants, ill get her the seat, shes a little claustrophobic like her ole man, so IDK....

[grt74]

i can say this with out a doubt (i really forgot about an accident my son was in)
he was in a race running 3rd tucked under the 2nd place car that was trying to pass a lapped car that was trying to get in the infield, he didn't see it because the 2nd place car was tucked under the lapped car(all of this was at the middle to the end of the straightaway) the lapped car rubbed 2nd place car and drove into the rr of our car turning him straight into the wall head on and then slapped the left side very hard(i would have thought it would have atleast startled him,but he was pretty upset too) I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT SAVED MY SONS LIFE, AND HE HAS SAID THAT HE WILL NOT RUN WITH OUT ONE,he was offered to drive a car one time but wouldn't because it didn't have a containment seat,he put his seat in and then he drove it for a few weeks
i think the biggest problem here is until the last year or two none of the cars really have enough room in them for the seat and hans,PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FROM THE TOP OF YOUR HELMET TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ROLL BARS,WE LIKE ATLEAST 2" MINIMUM
racing is dangerous no doubt,but not as dangerous as not taking the precautions
as always guys please be as safe as you can,we can replace the cars but we can't replace you as a person,father,wife,son, daughter,or friend,ask mr smooth about a containment seat,i think he runs one now too,after the same kind of accident

[Matt49]

I have to disagree completely with the basketball analogy. From a pure physics standpoint, a basketball bouncing off of any hard surface is a very elastic collision. Helmets and the padding in the full containment seats are specifically designed to absorb the energy of a collision and hence make it an inelastic collision.
I've been using a full containment seat since I started driving a late model and it's the best money I've ever spent. I've been in some VERY hard collisions and I'm a believer that the seat protected me from excessive upper body and head movement that could have lead to rib, back, neck, etc. injuries.
On the HANS deal, I'll say this: I read somewhere that you can sustain a basilar skull fracture at 40 MPH head on impact. Whether it is true or not, it lead me to buying a HANS. The only reason I stopped wearing last season (after only wearing it twice) was because I came in after hot laps to find my helmet wasn't strapped. Just one of those deals where adding new things to a routine caused me to miss something very basic. Freaked me out so I put it back in the box until I have time to practice the new strapping-in routine associated with wearing it. Which will certainly be done this off-season.

[Renegade Cust Susp]

i can say this with out a doubt (i really forgot about an accident my son was in)
he was in a race running 3rd tucked under the 2nd place car that was trying to pass a lapped car that was trying to get in the infield, he didn't see it because the 2nd place car was tucked under the lapped car(all of this was at the middle to the end of the straightaway) the lapped car rubbed 2nd place car and drove into the rr of our car turning him straight into the wall head on and then slapped the left side very hard(i would have thought it would have atleast startled him,but he was pretty upset too) I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT SAVED MY SONS LIFE, AND HE HAS SAID THAT HE WILL NOT RUN WITH OUT ONE,he was offered to drive a car one time but wouldn't because it didn't have a containment seat,he put his seat in and then he drove it for a few weeks
i think the biggest problem here is until the last year or two none of the cars really have enough room in them for the seat and hans,PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FROM THE TOP OF YOUR HELMET TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ROLL BARS,WE LIKE ATLEAST 2" MINIMUM
racing is dangerous no doubt,but not as dangerous as not taking the precautions
as always guys please be as safe as you can,we can replace the cars but we can't replace you as a person,father,wife,son, daughter,or friend,ask mr smooth about a containment seat,i think he runs one now too,after the same kind of accident

I could not agree with this more, driver to cage clearance is hardly addressed in the open wheel stuff and even less so in the stock car stuff, that is why we always run tall cage cars sprint car and modifiers and after conversations with Bryan at Bandit he raised the halo in ALL of his cars from what they used to be.

[grt74]

i know there is some testing going on,I'm hoping to know more after pri (after i talk to some of my friends that test vehicle safety equipment,there some very sharp guys,and they have access to test a ton of different ways),someone has told me that the basketball effect is real but they have tested memory form instead of impact foam but i haven't heard any results yet,when you look at a crash (side impact) in slow motion the helmet flexes causing the basketball effect,of coarse its not exactly the same but you can get the idea,but we can all agree that a concussion is better than the alternative, BUT IM NOT CLAIMING TO BE ANY KIND OF EXPERT ON THIS,because of the liability world

[collateralDamage]

In all athletics, racing included, concussions have increased dramatically over the last 15 years (60% more?). It is speculated that this is a result of increased awareness and early diagnosis and not that there are actually more concussions.

Same goes for racing fatalities? Are there more fatalities in racing today or are we just more aware of them (via social media, etc)?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

a girl down in florida, several years back , in a pony car got turned and hit the wall head on , neck snapped and shes dead,i think the hans might have saved her. im not fully sold on the containment seat for my self, but my daughter wears a hans and if she wants, ill get her the seat, shes a little claustrophobic like her ole man, so IDK....

I remember that. Didn't know the type of injury involved. Those cars do have less crush zone than a late model.