Concussions, Full Containments Seats and a bouncing ball.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

i know there is some testing going on,I'm hoping to know more after pri (after i talk to some of my friends that test vehicle safety equipment,there some very sharp guys,and they have access to test a ton of different ways),someone has told me that the basketball effect is real but they have tested memory form instead of impact foam but i haven't heard any results yet,when you look at a crash (side impact) in slow motion the helmet flexes causing the basketball effect,of coarse its not exactly the same but you can get the idea,but we can all agree that a concussion is better than the alternative, BUT IM NOT CLAIMING TO BE ANY KIND OF EXPERT ON THIS,because of the liability world

A concussion is better than death, if that is the choice. If you are getting 3 concussions a year and your chance of a fatal accident is 1%, then you are making the wrong choice.

[Stede Bonnet]

As someone who knows personally the aids of a full containment seat from my time racing non wing sprint cars in Indiana and crashing them a few times, this idea that a full containment seat is a bad idea because of the possibility of a concussion is asinine at best. If chance of injury is your concern you may want to find a safer sport. Drivers, any and all will be glad to have a concussion from and overly rigid seat as apposed to the alternative of there helmet hitting a concrete wall or (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit sections of sheet metal which have in recent times proven to be WAY more dangerous than a concussion. There are inherent risks in what we do but you are dissecting the micro to sacrifice the macro.

Is it possible that some full containment seats are too rigid causing the problem absolutely, but to suggest all versions of this device are unsafe is a bit much.

The seat will help protect you in a lateral impact something a hans has proven not to do.
Many other factors should be taken into account, do we know for a fact that junior or Brian's helmets fit 100% correctly to prevent as much trauma as possible, it's likely they did fit but does anyone truely know?
Just my .02 cents

Actually I'm NOT arguing that they are too rigid and possibly not all designs have the same issue, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see putting a round object between two big huge rubber pads may cause a ping-pong effect. A concussion isn't a small thing, especially if your getting them often or concussion like symptoms on a regular basis. Concussions can lead to all sorts of debilitating problems, like early onset dimensia, depression and suicide to name a few, its NOT just a headache. My main argument is against "Mandating" FC seats without all the facts. Basil skull injuries are generally straight ahead(Front to back), that's what the HANS was designed to prevent. I'm also arguing the escapability problem of a DLM equipped with FC, I'd like to see some rule changes that address that. I'm NOT anti-safety, but knee-jerk mandates can be just as bad if not worse than doing nothing.

[RCJ]

Doesn't every time the helmet hits some thing it becomes less effective the next hit?

[Stede Bonnet]

I have to disagree completely with the basketball analogy. From a pure physics standpoint, a basketball bouncing off of any hard surface is a very elastic collision. Helmets and the padding in the full containment seats are specifically designed to absorb the energy of a collision and hence make it an inelastic collision.
I've been using a full containment seat since I started driving a late model and it's the best money I've ever spent. I've been in some VERY hard collisions and I'm a believer that the seat protected me from excessive upper body and head movement that could have lead to rib, back, neck, etc. injuries.
On the HANS deal, I'll say this: I read somewhere that you can sustain a basilar skull fracture at 40 MPH head on impact. Whether it is true or not, it lead me to buying a HANS. The only reason I stopped wearing last season (after only wearing it twice) was because I came in after hot laps to find my helmet wasn't strapped. Just one of those deals where adding new things to a routine caused me to miss something very basic. Freaked me out so I put it back in the box until I have time to practice the new strapping-in routine associated with wearing it. Which will certainly be done this off-season.

Which kind/brand seat do you use? I think HANS is a great idea too. A lot of people don't understand what a HANS is designed to do, you obviously do.

[keeks]

I bought a nex gen, and the dang thing doesn't fit in my halo vs seat. I'm disappointed that I have to cut up my seat to make the restraint fit.

Has anyone else had to do something like this?

[Stede Bonnet]

Doesn't every time the helmet hits some thing it becomes less effective the next hit?

If your asking if a helmet loses its capability or degrades in performance after an impact, I believe that is correct. Now whether bouncing off the FC sides counts, I couldn't say. I think FC seats are well intended, I'm just not sure its the best way to go. Maybe there aren't more concussions, maybe we just know about more of them because of social media and news coverage in general, I don't know. Is football and auto racing the same thing injury wise? Absolutely not. I was merely trying to raise awareness and have a conversation about seats, concussions and some things I've observed. Today's culture is all to quick to react, both in government and society, all in the name of "safety and security" when tragedy strikes. I just want to make sure we do the right things and don't scrap our "freedom to decide" because something bad occurred. They've already started making suspension rules that make things unnecessarily more expensive, I'd just hate to see a bunch of mandates do anymore damage to our racing economy and it not fix anything.

I am glad to hear what I observed has been noticed by those in the industry and its being looked at. I hate to hear somebody spent a lot of money on a seat that is actually doing him harm, even without having an accident. For me I think it'll be a regular seat and a window net and a headrest that gives way. Maybe they could come up with a device like the HANS that works laterally...

[Matt49]

I didn't notice any clearance issues using my Nexgen. This is with a Kirkey containment seat (to also answer Steed's question).

[zeroracing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gkTezQu7k

I am a believer in single piece suits, full containment seats and head/neck restraints.

[Krooser]

that head support no doubt absorbed some energy... the drivers neck/head still moved a lot but not as much as if he didn't have that support.

I like the old horse collar to help keep the neck stable... not sold on FC seats unless the driver can exit the car fast enough to avoid injury from fire. Same with the safety crew... we build too many cars that can keep the driver from easily being extracted from the car in an emergency.

[rakracing]

i believe you all have good points, my feeling is in 28 years of racing lms the last 8 with a top kirkey fc seat, i never had a issue with a reg kirkey seat with head rest . the problem is a fc seat was designed that the helmet touches the head rest snugg on both sides which no one likes cause ya cant turn your head, mine was ok but didnt like that i couldnt look. i opened it up some and from there on rung my bell more than once. race with a kid that has it all fc seat hans parents got him everything, at 21 hes on his 5th concussion and last one he backed into the wall and it knocked him out,. also seen over the years guys dont have the belts set right submarine belt to long and loose and in a roll over that belt means everything..... all the saftey stuff is great if used right and thats most of the problem....

[LM14]

NHRA changed the roll cage padding rules after some drivers were getting concussions during tire shake.

F1 and Indy car helmets fit into a padded pocket and you don't see concussions in those 2 forms of racing.

I've had drivers with Hans and full containment seats take some BIG hits and get out just fine.

I think a possible area to look at is helmet fit (how many helmets really and truly fit the driver correctly?) and different padding of the head side pieces of the containment seat. I would like to see less air space between the side pieces of the seat and the outside of the helmet. With less room to travel before making contact, the velocity of the impact is slowed. If the seat side foam conformed to the helmet sides tighter, that may help. Close up those gaps, keep the helmet from moving freely so much.

Hans is a good piece for what it is designed to do. Many think it will save them in any accident, it won't. It has a very narrow focus of protection as stated by others. Maybe the same amount of testing needs to be taken at containment seats, foam pads, flexibility (I'm not thinking you want them to flex if the seat doesn't) and helmet sizing and fit.

SPark

[grt74]

NHRA changed the roll cage padding rules after some drivers were getting concussions during tire shake.

F1 and Indy car helmets fit into a padded pocket and you don't see concussions in those 2 forms of racing.

I've had drivers with Hans and full containment seats take some BIG hits and get out just fine.

I think a possible area to look at is helmet fit (how many helmets really and truly fit the driver correctly?) and different padding of the head side pieces of the containment seat. I would like to see less air space between the side pieces of the seat and the outside of the helmet. With less room to travel before making contact, the velocity of the impact is slowed. If the seat side foam conformed to the helmet sides tighter, that may help. Close up those gaps, keep the helmet from moving freely so much.

Hans is a good piece for what it is designed to do. Many think it will save them in any accident, it won't. It has a very narrow focus of protection as stated by others. Maybe the same amount of testing needs to be taken at containment seats, foam pads, flexibility (I'm not thinking you want them to flex if the seat doesn't) and helmet sizing and fit.

SPark

maybe its time to think about mirrors in the car or radios,i know in the dirt world most do not like it,but with all the signals by the crew in the stands i really don't see a difference and then at that point you can have a seat that fits tighter around the head area,but i do know that 95% of the time the helmet and the seat are too close to the roll bars,just go to a topless race,it just flat blew me away that some of the helmets were above the roll bar, I'm going to talk to the top seat manufactures and see what they have to say about fitment,i have always been told that if you can slide your hands in on both sides of your helmet,that was about all the space you wanted,but if the helmet needs to be in as some has said a pocket to fix the problem,its time to look at mirrors and or radios,
nascar seats look like there pretty tight around the head area too
were not going to stop it all but this does seem like an easy fix,because of all the info that other racing bodies have,it doesn't seem to be to far fetched to research

[Stede Bonnet]

Who all has which kind of seat and who is getting concussions?
Any links or pics would be nice too.
Thanks.

I've always liked the way Bloomquist does his headrest both side and rear.

[Stede Bonnet]

Heres a quote and a link to an interesting article:

"...Almost all head trauma in automobile racing results from collisions, when the head is shaken violently..." according to Dr. Robert Cantu

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/0...r-drivers.html

“The important thing for people to understand is that you don’t have to hit your head to have a concussion and don’t have to have been unconscious to have a concussion,” Dr. Stephen E. Olvey, associate professor of clinical neurology & neurosurgery at University of Miami Health System told FoxNews.com. “If the movement of the head is violent enough and the brain hits the inside of the skull, for example, you can still have significant injury or concussion.

[Matt49]

maybe its time to think about mirrors in the car or radios,i know in the dirt world most do not like it,but with all the signals by the crew in the stands i really don't see a difference and then at that point you can have a seat that fits tighter around the head area,but i do know that 95% of the time the helmet and the seat are too close to the roll bars,just go to a topless race,it just flat blew me away that some of the helmets were above the roll bar, I'm going to talk to the top seat manufactures and see what they have to say about fitment,i have always been told that if you can slide your hands in on both sides of your helmet,that was about all the space you wanted,but if the helmet needs to be in as some has said a pocket to fix the problem,its time to look at mirrors and or radios,
nascar seats look like there pretty tight around the head area too
were not going to stop it all but this does seem like an easy fix,because of all the info that other racing bodies have,it doesn't seem to be to far fetched to research

I've always been against mirrors because I feel it might encourage blocking. It sure does in pavement racing. That being said, anybody that has ever driven one of these cars knows how bad visibility is to your left going into a turn. If somebody isn't almost all they way along side of you, you simply can see them. I feel this causes a lot of incidents that could be avoided if the guy on the outside knew he had somebody right next to him.

[Matt49]

This is good discussion and it is obvious that there are a lot of different ideas out there and none of us are experts. That being said, there are obviously people out there that are experts in different areas of safety (seats, HANS, harnesses, fire safety, etc.). It sounds to me like where we are really lacking (as racers) is a complete understanding of how all of these components should work TOGETHER to have the best possible safety "system" in our race cars.
It seems to me that there would be a demand for some sort of safety seminar (much like a chassis setup seminar) that covered a lot of this stuff. Or maybe some of the chassis setup seminar folks should consider bringing in guests that have a focus on safety and incorporating that into their existing program...
...just thinking out loud here...

[fabu100]

I personally think many of us are not buying the correct size helmet. The most important thing when it comes to the proper fit is on the crown of the head. I have seen so many that chose a helmet for comfort and how it fits around the cheeks rather than the top of the head. Shop around and try 5 or 10 different ones till you find the correct one. I am also considering a mouthgaurd. Wore one during my motocross days....

[rakracing]

agree with fabu100 was always a simpson helmet person, but tried diffrent one on at a show and the bell gtx fit my head better than any, been with bell since. something else i'd recommend, couple years ago friend gave me a rib vest protector to use after surgery and have been wherein ever since, fit better in seat and the simpson hybrid doesnt dig in my shoulders

[Brian Gray]

I just want to ad a couple points to this , clarify. One on Jason lefler, first off yes he had top equipment but chose to cut off one side of the head support so he could get in and out of the car easier. COD " blunt force trauma to the neck." End result of wearing a Hans without side protection my opinion. This result has been repeated multiple times over the last few years.

As far as containment seats go there are what I call REAL ones and then there are some misrepresentations. As a 2016 concussion victim I don't blame my seat for a second. I'm thankful I had the equipment I had cause honestly given the violent acts that took place in my wreck I'm positive that without them I wouldn't have walked away without being hurt much worse.

Until we have some uniform way to educate people on the importance of having as well as properly mounting a real containment seat which includes having proper belts and how they should be mounted. I'm not sure a discussion on the topic of such is not doing a disservice to those reading this.

Anyone reading this please don't take anything here as a reason to not equip your car with a real containment seat. Especially if you plan on wearing any type of HANS device. It is a critical component of your personal safety.

[lrnvlFan1w]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1qz7bwsMM4

I found this video and thought it was relevant to what you all are talking about.

This was on the LaJoie Racing Seat website.

Notice the head bouncing.

Keep talking this topic is great.