Lucas rules

[cutman]

can you not be knocked unconscious in a full containment seat? Has research been done about these seats and the issues with concussions?

[Stede Bonnet]

can you not be knocked unconscious in a full containment seat? Has research been done about these seats and the issues with concussions?

I've brought that up several times and its yet to be addressed. "Full Containment" has been deemed the "end-all, be-all" of seats, despite the fact that it most likely contributed to one death and some serious burns to another. This day and age once a trend gets going it takes something horrendous to derail it. Its kinda like that group that thinks a HANS is going to protect your neck/head no matter what type accident your in.

What I fear most in order:
1) Fire.
2) Being trapped.
3) Permanent Brain damage.

I believe the FC seat is directly linked to the rise in concussion injuries, but the impression I'm getting from the powers that be is, is that its a risk acceptable to them. So this is what the "Next Level" in DLM racing is like...

[flagone]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.

[fastford]

flagone, when you can assure me that if i buy all this stuff , there is no way i will get hurt, then you will have "done your job" and i will buy what ever you say , I have to agree with stede bonnet , there has not been enough research done to prove if some of this stuff cant do harm also in the right circumstance. i will say all my kids wear a head restraint of some kind , and i agree there needs to be something to keep the head and arms inside the car, i just dont think it needs to be as extreme as these rules seem to make it.

[fastford]

one other thing to consider , talking about my kids got me to thinking, is a late model drivers safety any more important than a street stock or pony car driver? i know were talking series here but, if were talking safety in general, if these rules were to get adopted by all tracks for all divisions , well thats about all she wrote folks.......

[MBR Performance]

Flagone the one thing you forgot to consider is the racers pocketbook. 75% of the local racers cannot afford these types of changes especially over the winter. I understand the effort to improve safety however your very effort is also hurting the sport. Not everyone has $40,000 cars especially on the local level. You want to make it safer then slow the cars down. Put the shock & spring back in front of the LR and eliminate the half rolled over posture of today's cars.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.

They race much heavier, faster, unyielding vehicles. But certainly they have done homework for their application.
Fire is a racers biggest danger, but we just keep making it harder to get out of the car to prevent the first basal skull fracture.

And when your head hits the track from lack of greenhouse height in a rollover, that containment seat guarantees your vertebrae get a compression fracture.

[Stede Bonnet]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.

Thank you for responding directly to my questions, I appreciate that. I disagree that we have anything in common with Nascar though. I appreciate your efforts and concern for drivers safety, but I still feel apples to apples logic is not being employed and the solutions don't all fit the issues we have. We had 2 serious fires this year that I know about, both involved drivers unable to escape their cars resulting in injury and death. We had several flips & rollovers resulting in concussions and a torn artery. All these drivers had these systems in place, except fire suppression. In the fires I'm sure the suppression systems would have made a measurable difference in those out comes.

Nascar has a perimeter style frames and the drivers area is accessible from both sides of the car.
We have parallel frames with access only on drivers side primarily.

Nascar races on always smooth asphalt surfaces.
We race on an ever changing dirt surface, prone to holes and ruts that induces flips, rollovers and violent shaking of the driver.

If I had to pick a motorsport we share similarities to, aside from the obvious Big Block Mods & Sprints, it would be World Ralley cars, not Cup. Emulating Nascar in anyway I feel is a mistake, but I'm done beating this horse, I know my opinion is most likely nothing but an annoyance to those who wanted to push all this thru. Even USAC doesn't mandate FC seats in dirt sprints, you are allowed either nets or FC and is the drivers discretion.

[RCJ]

The comment from talclipse about a fuel vent that won't drain when upside down is something I never thought of.I have a check valve but I think I 'll replum my vent.2 things that I want to add,Helmets-I seen drivers get head injurys and go back with the same helmet.Helmets deteriorate inside after a hit. Physical fitness-we all should be,but it is even more important to a driver.

[mcarter815]

here is my take, if its a rule to protect others around you like the wheel covers, then im ok with it , but, im a grown man, i sign a disclosure when i enter the track, if i choose to use a seat that doesnt meet this sfi spec, then it should be my right. If i get hurt or killed that is directly related to not having this expensive specialized equipment, then its on me. In my opinion, i think this whole deal is more money related than safety related. If the sanctioning bodies are this worried about safety, require the tracks to put up some kind of safer barrier and let the sanctioning bodies dump some of there own money into it and i may change my mind........

That's a selfish point of view. Your death or injury impacts more than just you. It impacts your family both emotionally and financially. It impacts the fans in the stands who have just had a fun night at the races ruined. It impacts racing as a whole because racing can only survive so many deaths before the government steps in or fans stop coming.

[Stede Bonnet]

After further review and consideration, I'm saying "No" to the SFI 39.2 seat.
Completely unwarranted specification.

Anybody know what hobby pays at Winder-Barrow?

[cutman]

After further review and consideration, I'm saying "No" to the SFI 39.2 seat.
Completely unwarranted specification.

Anybody know what hobby pays at Winder-Barrow?

I believe that having to have that spec is going to be dropped from the rules.

[cjsracing]

As some one who has suffered three serious concussions and many other minor ones in football (college and high school) I feel I can add a little something to this topic. First off let me say that concussions occur when your head hits something causing the brain to smash into the skull. In football it is from contact to the helmet via another helmet or the ground. So now think about it in a racecar, you have a helmet and the seat. A non-containment seat doesn't have the pieces for your head to contact. But a containment seat has the guards on each side of the head that are solid. So if your helmet comes into violent contact with one of the guards along side of the head, the guards aren't moving, but inertia is still moving your brain until it contact your skull. This impact is what is causing the concussion.

Now I will admit I am not a doctor (I am a CPA), but with my concussion history (from football) and various talks with doctors and trainers I feel I have a good understanding of this.

I don't use a full containment seat and have no desire to. My non containment seat has the bolt on head guards but if my head hits them hard enough they bend and give way, in other words they slow down my head movement allowing my brain to not contact my skull with the force it would have if my head would have come to a complete stop from hitting the solid head guards of a containment seat.

Just my 2 cents.

[Clayton_Wetter]

As some one who has suffered three serious concussions and many other minor ones in football (college and high school) I feel I can add a little something to this topic. First off let me say that concussions occur when your head hits something causing the brain to smash into the skull. In football it is from contact to the helmet via another helmet or the ground. So now think about it in a racecar, you have a helmet and the seat. A non-containment seat doesn't have the pieces for your head to contact. But a containment seat has the guards on each side of the head that are solid. So if your helmet comes into violent contact with one of the guards along side of the head, the guards aren't moving, but inertia is still moving your brain until it contact your skull. This impact is what is causing the concussion.

Now I will admit I am not a doctor (I am a CPA), but with my concussion history (from football) and various talks with doctors and trainers I feel I have a good understanding of this.

I don't use a full containment seat and have no desire to. My non containment seat has the bolt on head guards but if my head hits them hard enough they bend and give way, in other words they slow down my head movement allowing my brain to not contact my skull with the force it would have if my head would have come to a complete stop from hitting the solid head guards of a containment seat.

Just my 2 cents.

Short and simple thought. Maybe nerf head guards? Or are they already similar?

[Stede Bonnet]

As some one who has suffered three serious concussions and many other minor ones in football (college and high school) I feel I can add a little something to this topic. First off let me say that concussions occur when your head hits something causing the brain to smash into the skull. In football it is from contact to the helmet via another helmet or the ground. So now think about it in a racecar, you have a helmet and the seat. A non-containment seat doesn't have the pieces for your head to contact. But a containment seat has the guards on each side of the head that are solid. So if your helmet comes into violent contact with one of the guards along side of the head, the guards aren't moving, but inertia is still moving your brain until it contact your skull. This impact is what is causing the concussion.

Now I will admit I am not a doctor (I am a CPA), but with my concussion history (from football) and various talks with doctors and trainers I feel I have a good understanding of this.

I don't use a full containment seat and have no desire to. My non containment seat has the bolt on head guards but if my head hits them hard enough they bend and give way, in other words they slow down my head movement allowing my brain to not contact my skull with the force it would have if my head would have come to a complete stop from hitting the solid head guards of a containment seat.

Just my 2 cents.

You are spot on and there is some new data coming out from a study done with the Stanford College football team with data acquisition that showed a ricochet effect was a more precise recording of events. The helmet strikes something, then bounces, but the brain lags behind the movement of the skull and makes impact as the skull is traveling in the opposite direction. The old notion or theory was also that the damage occurred on the surface of the brain, but now they've been able to learn more with imaging and some autopsies that the damage occurs near the center, where a tearing effect happens to the membrane that separates the two brain hemispheres. Thanks for adding your experiences and input. There is a Ted Talk that discusses some of these new findings too, its mainly about helmet design but offers insights also into general concussion info.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_cama...and_what_might

[fastford]

That's a selfish point of view. Your death or injury impacts more than just you. It impacts your family both emotionally and financially. It impacts the fans in the stands who have just had a fun night at the races ruined. It impacts racing as a whole because racing can only survive so many deaths before the government steps in or fans stop coming.

call it what you want, but it is my point of view, and ill tell you the same thing i told flagone , prove to me , beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this exotic safety stuff will prevent any of the things you mentioned above , and im all in. I ride a motorcycle on the highway on a regular basis and could have the things you mention happen a lot easier than racing a car with out these expensive seats or what ever, so i guess by your point of view , i should sell my bike , so ill ask you, do you do anything that you do not have to do that could take you away from your family ? if so , then maybe you are being a little selfish your self.

[just dust]

I own a 2 car team and If those rules are not adjusted then we are done! If my Butlerbuilt containment seat or new RCI fuel cell isn't going to be good enough I'm not going to buy new. I have a Hans Device and a high dollar suit but I know a lot do not, that's a lot of money. I'm seeing it at around $5k for some to get to the rule per car.
But the fire system is stupid, what needs scrutinized and enforced by these sanctioning bodies is making tracks have certified fire and safety crews. I'd rather pay more at the gate and be sure I have experienced people there, than a device with a nozzle aimed in 2 places to save my life!
This will eliminate weekly local latemodel racing. Maybe I will just cut off the front clip and put on a new stub and race modifieds?
Lucas and Woo would rather eliminate all weekly latemodel's and have them just come in for specials is what it looks like to me!!!!!

I dont remember when , but a big lucas oil driver said that only lucas oil touring series
drivers should be able to race their series . That when they come to their track no locals
should be able to race that event . And the driver that said that was a lucas oil champion ,
now go figure . I mean I want all the safety we can get but there you have it .

[calverton]

what is afraid he might get beat and who would attend a race with only 12 cars

[MidTnDirtFan]

I have a question........ with all this talk about seats and fire why hasn't something been said or done to make the drivers escape route easier???? In other words why can't they build a much taller roof and window opening?????? I know it might alter the aerodynamics but I think that if ALL CARS have to provide a larger exit area it would even out that aspect. Most drivers look like they need a shoe horn to get into and out of the car in normal conditions.
Can someone answer that aspect????

[Clayton_Wetter]

what is afraid he might get beat and who would attend a race with only 12 cars

THERE WENT THAT NOISE AGAIN!!!!!