Where are we headed?

[A ron]

Down here, for the moment anyway, you can buy a $3500 roller, a 602, and a $400 set of afco shocks and run competitive in the 602 Sportsman class. I'm sure at some point the people with unlimited budgets will drop down and ruin all the fun (already seeing stacker haulers and $40k capitals showing up) but for now it's great in my opinion. This is only my third year to be around but I've picked up that every class (down here at least) seems to do great until the racers find somewhere else to "buy" an edge.

[fastford]

I don't see any economical fast cars in any class *including fwd style cars*.........fastford. LOL

i have 2 kids in FWD cars that have less than 2k in them and they have both won races, thats about as economical as you can get

[fastford]

Down here, for the moment anyway, you can buy a $3500 roller, a 602, and a $400 set of afco shocks and run competitive in the 602 Sportsman class. I'm sure at some point the people with unlimited budgets will drop down and ruin all the fun (already seeing stacker haulers and $40k capitals showing up) but for now it's great in my opinion. This is only my third year to be around but I've picked up that every class (down here at least) seems to do great until the racers find somewhere else to "buy" an edge.

thats exactly what happened to the original crate class, MONEY , but its the nature of the beast....

[old17ford]

Been racing and around racing about 50 years same o same o the unlimited budget teams have almost killed racing . They have a car in almost every class and tech at tracks is not to good all late model bodys are wrong even ours.I love racing as much as anybody but its hard when you know you dont have much of a chance to win and that is what its all about .imoa Hope things changes before i kick the bucket .

[grt74]

its simple, cost and time vs reward, if you win
crates may have been the answer but they let them in the engines and pay less to win,im speaking on weekly events

[MaverickSprints]

And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars.

Actually, in my area, there are primarily 2 teams that dominate at 3 tracks. One team was a limited only team before the inception of crates, they always had new cars and pro-built Clements engines. Now they have 2 new cars, 1- limited 1-Crate, both new, top of the line Barry Wrights and they pay an outside party to maintain and prep the cars every week, latest & greatest parts, shocks and technology. This team wins nearly all the races at one track. There are probably 5 other teams that start with new cars each season now, but don't have full time organizations preparing the cars for them. There isn't much in the way of junk in the 604 class, they've since dropped down to the wonderously boring 602 sportsman class. I've worked on Late models for 30 years, built shocks for 10 of those. After the Rumley rule and this years new supposed safety rules I quit late models and began learning about sprints(non-wing) and plan to start a spec/limited sprint class here in the south. You asked in the begining, "Where are we headed?" so let me answer. Where we are headed is no where, fans don't enjoy under-powered over-traction go karts and open comp supers are being allowed to become more and more expensive thru rule creep and ineffective ignorant leadership that write rules for the elite at the expense of the rest. Where we are headed is crate lates becoming the norm, without fans, so it will be club style racing with no purse, just trophies like the ones they gave you for showing up all your life for t-ball.

[Matt49]

Actually, in my area, there are primarily 2 teams that dominate at 3 tracks. One team was a limited only team before the inception of crates, they always had new cars and pro-built Clements engines. Now they have 2 new cars, 1- limited 1-Crate, both new, top of the line Barry Wrights and they pay an outside party to maintain and prep the cars every week, latest & greatest parts, shocks and technology. This team wins nearly all the races at one track. There are probably 5 other teams that start with new cars each season now, but don't have full time organizations preparing the cars for them. There isn't much in the way of junk in the 604 class, they've since dropped down to the wonderously boring 602 sportsman class. I've worked on Late models for 30 years, built shocks for 10 of those. After the Rumley rule and this years new supposed safety rules I quit late models and began learning about sprints(non-wing) and plan to start a spec/limited sprint class here in the south. You asked in the begining, "Where are we headed?" so let me answer. Where we are headed is no where, fans don't enjoy under-powered over-traction go karts and open comp supers are being allowed to become more and more expensive thru rule creep and ineffective ignorant leadership that write rules for the elite at the expense of the rest. Where we are headed is crate lates becoming the norm, without fans, so it will be club style racing with no purse, just trophies like the ones they gave you for showing up all your life for t-ball.

Which is why I'm a big proponent of something in the middle. Opens are running wild and (as we agree but for different reasons) crates aren't the long term solution. Yeah there are "limited" late model classes already in existence but the rules on motors and cars are all over the place. Let's come up with a unified set of engine rules that is easy to tech and keeps the super huge money from ruining the party (as much as reasonably possible) by simply outspending on motor.
I'm not a big fan of limiting what we're doing for suspension from one class of late model to another. Let late models be late models from a car perspective and let the motors be the differentiation.

[MaverickSprints]

Agree to disagree. Good luck.

[zeroracing]

Agree 100% with Matt, motor rules but not chassis, nobody wants a one off car.

[Bob Hubbard]

Good Post matt .... I agree alot of your points ....

[MaverickSprints]

Agree 100% with Matt, motor rules but not chassis, nobody wants a one off car.

I never advocated a "one off" car, that's stupid and a gross perversion of everything I recommended. What's sad is none of you young guys realize we've been HERE before, in this same situation. During the wedge era, just like now, the cars had way too much traction, everybody was flying thru the corners at breakneck speeds and the only advantage was MORE power. Engine costs sky rocketed, racers began dropping out of late model and before the ship was corrected a large part of the DLM population was gone. In parts of the midwest late models never returned... Todays cars and the wedge era cars are very similar in what they provide, the only difference is how its achieved. Todays cars prop up the chassis and body on 2 solid rods instead of just building the body that way to start, same end result, HIGH downforce. I am a free market conservative, this is my viewpoint on everything from the economy to racing as I close in on 50 years old.

The younger guys have embraced the shock and suspension technology that has come about to deal with violent suspension movements born from the shock behind setup and they don't wish to give that up, it's their performance advantage over others, so they wish to diminish the advantages that a veteran has earned from years of racing and wise investment. My ideas, my POV is to use the same solution that corrected the sinking ship before, take away the aero and diminish the traction. With diminished traction, you have less need of high HP and this, in turn, reduces engine costs and allows more people to come out and play. In order to get at the root of the problem, you must remove or hinder what causes the problem. What causes the problem began in 98' with the advent of running, "On The Hook". Everything that has led to the runaway expense in both engines, chassis and suspension of dirt late model today IS rooted in the shock behind setup, period. And since that is the case, that is where fixing the problem resides as well. I don't expect this to happen, the powers that be combined with the attitudes and ignorance of a younger generation are going to decimate late models even further.

Recently at 2 Lucas shows here in the south there weren't enough supers to even make a full field. Fans won't travel hundereds of miles to watch a crate race, they're to dull. Now we have two extremes heavily invested, we have companies and teams invested in the elite traveling end of things and we have companies and teams sprung up that cater only to crates, such that now you need spend $13K-$15K for all the goodies to juice up your 604 to be a contender in the crate ranks. The whole thing is so corrupted that I bailed after 30 years. The solution is so clear, but because everyones motivations are for themselves and NOT the sport as a whole, it won't be fixed.

Rest In Peace

[Matt49]

I never advocated a "one off" car, that's stupid and a gross perversion of everything I recommended. What's sad is none of you young guys realize we've been HERE before, in this same situation. During the wedge era, just like now, the cars had way too much traction, everybody was flying thru the corners at breakneck speeds and the only advantage was MORE power. Engine costs sky rocketed, racers began dropping out of late model and before the ship was corrected a large part of the DLM population was gone. In parts of the midwest late models never returned... Todays cars and the wedge era cars are very similar in what they provide, the only difference is how its achieved. Todays cars prop up the chassis and body on 2 solid rods instead of just building the body that way to start, same end result, HIGH downforce. I am a free market conservative, this is my viewpoint on everything from the economy to racing as I close in on 50 years old.

The younger guys have embraced the shock and suspension technology that has come about to deal with violent suspension movements born from the shock behind setup and they don't wish to give that up, it's their performance advantage over others, so they wish to diminish the advantages that a veteran has earned from years of racing and wise investment. My ideas, my POV is to use the same solution that corrected the sinking ship before, take away the aero and diminish the traction. With diminished traction, you have less need of high HP and this, in turn, reduces engine costs and allows more people to come out and play. In order to get at the root of the problem, you must remove or hinder what causes the problem. What causes the problem began in 98' with the advent of running, "On The Hook". Everything that has led to the runaway expense in both engines, chassis and suspension of dirt late model today IS rooted in the shock behind setup, period. And since that is the case, that is where fixing the problem resides as well. I don't expect this to happen, the powers that be combined with the attitudes and ignorance of a younger generation are going to decimate late models even further.

Recently at 2 Lucas shows here in the south there weren't enough supers to even make a full field. Fans won't travel hundereds of miles to watch a crate race, they're to dull. Now we have two extremes heavily invested, we have companies and teams invested in the elite traveling end of things and we have companies and teams sprung up that cater only to crates, such that now you need spend $13K-$15K for all the goodies to juice up your 604 to be a contender in the crate ranks. The whole thing is so corrupted that I bailed after 30 years. The solution is so clear, but because everyones motivations are for themselves and NOT the sport as a whole, it won't be fixed.

Rest In Peace

Like you said, we'll agree to disagree.
My firm belief is that you could start rule tomorrow that said you can't have a body on the car at all and the spread bore motors wouldn't magically disappear as you are suggesting. They would still be there and they would still be winning races.
Do you have a list of the $15K of goodies that I need to juide up my 604? I'm pretty competitive as it is without these things you speak of. I'm just curious what they are as I don't see them on my competitor's cars either but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

[Lizardracing]

Just something to think about.
In my area the Bmods($400 to win) have the fullest fields by far of any other class. 35-40 is not unusual.

15 super style late models and/or crates styles are normal at $1000/$750 to win.

What can we take from looking at other classes doing well and apply that to late model and racing in general?

To me it's in the engine/shock/aero packages but leaving a very adjustable car in place that seems to make more difference than payouts for the average driver. Big money teams will always spend the big money but catering more to the average racer, the ones having fun trying to win and not the very few who can buy their way to the front is more effective in ALL classes.
Keep in mind a close door to door race at 5mph is still less exciting to fans.

I've noticed a few things that tracks doing well have in common. Small 3/8 or less tracks, racey mutiple groove surfaces, unforgiving cushions, quality hot food with alcohol beverages, clean bathrooms and an overall show that minimizes down time make it more enjoyable for fans and racers.

[MaverickSprints]

Like you said, we'll agree to disagree.
My firm belief is that you could start rule tomorrow that said you can't have a bod on the car at all and the spread bore motors wouldn't magically disappear as you are suggesting. The would still be there and they would still be winning races.
Do you have a list of the $15K of goodies that I need to juide up my 604? I'm pretty competitive as it is without these things you speak of. I'm just curious what they are as I don't see them on my competitor's cars either but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

$13K-$15K includes the 604, things like special crate carbs, headers, pulley systems, brakes, blueprinting, etc, etc. There is a whole cottage industry that exists to profit solely from giving the 604 3 more HP at a premium. But it has all been discussed Ad nauseam in other threads. I haven't advocated any magic, just basic logic, common sense and 30 years experience. You see I don't expect spread bores to disappear, I don't need them to. I don't fear what others feel compelled to spend in error, you yourself pointed out that in certain circumstances a 450Hp Crate can compete and beat an open comp 850HP brute. My aim is to replicate that situation so 850HP isn't a necessity, though you are free to spend as much as you like. So why are you here in the DLM section espousing the virtues of crates if what you want is engine rules, but no chassis rule? We have engine rules now and the same way you furiously cling to your over priced suspension, they cling to their over priced engines...

History doesn't always repeat, but it does often rhyme and those who ignore it or are ignorant of it are doomed to relive it and the consequences.

[Matt49]

You're listing costs on crates for carbs, headers, pulleys, and pumps as if these same costs don't exist for open motors. A carb or headers for a crate doesn't cost any more than a carb or headers for an open. Same for all the pumps and pulleys until you get to the oil system which is WAY more expensive for an open.
All of the other "trick" stuff like lightweight brakes, hubs, etc. are not necessary AT ALL to be competitive or win in a crate. MLR19's crate car has beaten open motor competition without any of this stuff.
This is another thing killing the crate class: the misconception (that is spreading unfortunately) that you have to sink tens of thousands of dollars more into a crate car to get it competitive than you do an open. It simply isn't true.

[billetbirdcage]

Sorry, about it being huge took me a while to figure out how to downsize the pic.

[pig tracker]

Take the tires away. Have them run on skinny tires with no grooving or any other type of alterations.

[rakracing]

I've only been racing latemodels since 1988 so I'm new at this, maverick, matt and pig have some good points, go back to the original performance body style nose and a 4" spoiler, and the shock spring in front on lr deal took all the drive out of these cars and forced the driver to drive them instead of flat out if cars right your good if not not much the driver car do about it. simple inexpensive fixes and simple to tech. as for the engines I always built my own, never had one more than 3k, but did win a 100 lap open motor open tire race and lapped up to 3rd, if you cant hook em up what good is all the hp, as for the crates its easy for someone to buy a 602 or 604 and go racing but you cant build your own if you want . an all steel 358 engine rule gives you that ability if you wish to build your own and save money, { and can tell you its better to win with something you built then bought} tires are the hardest problem, open rule your buying new tires every week, hard spec d55 1600 rule you'll buy tires every week cause the edges mean something, and a 12 tire as pig brought up would be a good idea but the woo and lucas guys will never do it, hoosier and a.r tire companies wouldnt like it either, kinda like the 1300/44 or harder, sipe and groove rules myself.

[pfd60]

This has been the best post to read in a while. Stop qualifying unless its a big series show. Go to a points system. Power I midgets do this and they put on great shows. The better teams will be upfront by the end of the night. Better for spectators. Qualifying with no invert can make for train races. Then you dont need a huge motor. That would fix most of the costs. Then the big motors from 10 years ago would be all you need. And you can pick one up for the same price as a cheated up complete crate. That would bring more supers drivers back. The better teams would also have to pass cars which makes for a better show for the spectators. Spectators would rather watch there favorite driver rip through the competition to the front than no passing at all. Its way more exciting. spectators are the only reason tracks stay open. The bodies need a little work but motors are the issue I agree with matt. Just my thoughts. Thanks for reading.

[MaverickSprints]

I've only been racing latemodels since 1988 so I'm new at this, maverick, matt and pig have some good points, go back to the original performance body style nose and a 4" spoiler, and the shock spring in front on lr deal took all the drive out of these cars and forced the driver to drive them instead of flat out if cars right your good if not not much the driver car do about it. simple inexpensive fixes and simple to tech. as for the engines I always built my own, never had one more than 3k, but did win a 100 lap open motor open tire race and lapped up to 3rd, if you cant hook em up what good is all the hp, as for the crates its easy for someone to buy a 602 or 604 and go racing but you cant build your own if you want . an all steel 358 engine rule gives you that ability if you wish to build your own and save money, { and can tell you its better to win with something you built then bought} tires are the hardest problem, open rule your buying new tires every week, hard spec d55 1600 rule you'll buy tires every week cause the edges mean something, and a 12 tire as pig brought up would be a good idea but the woo and lucas guys will never do it, hoosier and a.r tire companies wouldnt like it either, kinda like the 1300/44 or harder, sipe and groove rules myself.

^^^ What he said. ^^^ LIKE button. Thanks, bro.