Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 77
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3,123

    Default Where are we headed?

    Posting this on the tech section simply because I'll get answers from people that understand the sport.

    With more rule changes all the time in the name of “saving” racers money, it seems we are back to this age-old argument of how to save late model racing from itself. And everybody has their own opinion on what changes need to be made to fix everything. If we’re talking open late models (which is obviously where the most expense is), you have to START with the cost of a competitive power plant. I see many other items brought up in discussions like shocks, tires, fuel, etc. But to even list those next to the cost of obtaining and maintaining an 800-950 HP motor is pretty ridiculous in my humble opinion.

    Most of you know that I race crates and we have good stuff on our car. The ONLY thing that I simply can’t pay the bill for to go open motor racing is the motor (I should say a competitive open motor). The shocks on an open don’t cost any more than good shocks on a crate. The tires on an open cost more (because of the motor mostly) and your drivetrain cost goes way up due to wear and tear. Now I’ll stop right now and say that I am NOT saying that crate racing is the solution. Crate racing was and still is a stop gap for guys that have late model stuff and really want to run their stuff without going broke on motors and rebuilds.

    So, I’ll just come out and say that, in my opinion, the open motor cost went completely out of control as soon as they started allowing the spread bore blocks. The old school late model rules for “open” or “super” late models used to say something like “a block based on a production American small block”. Some still have rules with some similar verbiage but it doesn’t really mean anything. Today’s open motors make horsepower that most tracks can’t hold past qualifying. I hear people say all the time that if you change the body rules to cut down on aero, you’ll eliminate the need for the HP. I disagree. I think if you change the rules on the engine you’ll cut down the need for all that aero to hold the thing to the track. There is obviously some chicken and egg argument here but what would be better, going back to the bodies of the early 80s and guys still having 900HP engines to qualify fast, or going back to the engines of the 80s and guys saving 10s of thousands on motors yet keep the aero package.

    So what’s the solution? I don’t know. Crate racing isn’t the answer. Fans will tell you that it’s boring. I think on larger tracks that’s true but our local ¼ miles puts on some pretty good races in the crate division. Should the “open” late models as we know them today just be for national and regional series? Should we revisit the CT525 thing for a local/weekly class that could prosper and give the fans of some of the larger tracks something to go watch where the 604 crates just don’t cut the mustard? I just don’t know.

    I’ll end with this on the crate classes (or any other limited class for that matter). Much of what is ruining crate racing as a whole are the places (including UMP country) that are trying to make it something other than a late model car (well…what it became) with a crate motor in it. Meaning, they are dumbing down other rules (like shocks and tires) to turn it into a glorified street stock. They do all this (as most rules do) in the name of saving racers money and it never works. Let ALL forms of late model racing have a uniform rules package on the chassis and suspension. As I said at the beginning, the BIG difference in cost is the power plants and the associated things that all that HP tears up under the car. Let’s keep that as the delimiter between the “classes” of late models and let the cars be the cars that we love.

    Interested to get other opinions and thoughts on this.

  2. #2

    Default

    I agree 100% and ask myself those questions almost daily. Sadly, I do believe the place for an "open" or "super" late model is in the national/regional series. That's simply what it has become. It's not always just the cost of the tires, equipment and engines. It's the budget to race 40 or 70 or 100 races a year against guys that are also racing that much. That track time and testing is critical to be competitive as much as anything with all that is constantly evolving.

    The crate classes offer a solution to the budget problem, so long as the rules are at least somewhat enforced. The traditional crate late model (604 engine w/tire rule) is pretty simple to tech if the series or track is even remotely proactive. But there is the issue of filling the stands when these cars are on a bigger track and it's profound the amount of times hoods aren't so much as lifted at a regular-show weekly crate race. Tech cannot be left for an individual track to enforce. Period.

    I've said this before, if not for WoO and/or Lucas the modern open dirt late model would not exist, especially not on a local/weekly level. Same goes for the traditional crate late model. If there is no unified rule system and a protocol for enforcement that someone other than local track staff can maintain, the class will quickly die.

    I think the question is "How do we make weekly racing exciting for the fans and reasonably affordable for the racer?"

    In the region I live, there are Open Late Models, Limited (358) Late Models and Crate Late Models. Car counts are slowly declining and tracks are running up to 6 classes of cars (bad for the fans). B mods are starting to become popular, which is interesting. They are restricted to wet sump engines.

    Is that a solution? This will fire the engine guys up for sure, but does the "Limited" local/weekly late model need to be a wet sump?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Batavia, OH
    Posts
    13,616

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by collateralDamage View Post
    I agree 100% and ask myself those questions almost daily. Sadly, I do believe the place for an "open" or "super" late model is in the national/regional series. That's simply what it has become. It's not always just the cost of the tires, equipment and engines. It's the budget to race 40 or 70 or 100 races a year against guys that are also racing that much. That track time and testing is critical to be competitive as much as anything with all that is constantly evolving.

    The crate classes offer a solution to the budget problem, so long as the rules are at least somewhat enforced. The traditional crate late model (604 engine w/tire rule) is pretty simple to tech if the series or track is even remotely proactive. But there is the issue of filling the stands when these cars are on a bigger track and it's profound the amount of times hoods aren't so much as lifted at a regular-show weekly crate race. Tech cannot be left for an individual track to enforce. Period.

    I've said this before, if not for WoO and/or Lucas the modern open dirt late model would not exist, especially not on a local/weekly level. Same goes for the traditional crate late model. If there is no unified rule system and a protocol for enforcement that someone other than local track staff can maintain, the class will quickly die.

    I think the question is "How do we make weekly racing exciting for the fans and reasonably affordable for the racer?"

    In the region I live, there are Open Late Models, Limited (358) Late Models and Crate Late Models. Car counts are slowly declining and tracks are running up to 6 classes of cars (bad for the fans). B mods are starting to become popular, which is interesting. They are restricted to wet sump engines.

    Is that a solution? This will fire the engine guys up for sure, but does the "Limited" local/weekly late model need to be a wet sump?
    I can't see how WoO or Lucas is maintaining local super racing. Hell, they are killing it with intended and unintended actions. The framework set up by Bob Memmer, for weekly racing, was exactly what weekly racing needed. It has all been eroded since his death. The national tours dictating what goes on in weekly super racing is precisely what is killing weekly racing. The more local the sport is, the cheaper it is.
    Last edited by MasterSbilt_Racer; 05-26-2017 at 10:05 AM.
    Modern Day Wedge Racing
    Florence -1

  4. #4

    Default

    Our area is pretty weak (almost non-existent) as far as true super lates. Steel blocks are also on the decline. We have a semi-late (stock block 358, any 23 degree iron head, flat top, with a cam lift rule. Also no adjustable shocks) that is really picking up steam as where the stock car guys are moving up to. You can put a competitive car on the track for $8-10k. Our street stocks are putting more than that into their 406+ motors. I like it because it's more budget than crates and we like to take care of our own motors. Most of the chassis are at least 5 yrs old. It's still a fairly new class though, and I'm sure it won't be long before some rich kid gets a brand new xr-1, and a Cornett built 358 along with a selection of about 37 different shocks in the trailer to ruin it. That's typically the nature of our sport. Win at any cost.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    662

    Default

    The class I am racing in allows full jig chassis with LR in front with 602 at 2600#. Or you can race a clip car 3 link with any hyd cam any carb at 2700# so far clip cars ha e won every race. My point is this if I had to buy my clip car new it's 15 grand car now you can find a good late model rollers for 2500$ up .I like what was said about not making every thing like a street stock Nesmiths better idea Street stocks are 30 grand race ready that's insane. I say limit the engines and shocks like some one said earlier on the jig cars he said their car counts are rising race ready car for 8 to 10 grand is great.If we don't lose the win at all cost syndrome there will not be any racing left. I got back into driving this year after 33 years away just to have some fun I don't have the funds to win at all cost.

  6. #6

    Default

    Wide Bore engines should have never been allowed. I think Clements even tried to tell the Lucas guys this but big money runs the show. Now they all have the same engine again, spending more money on it and racing for the same money as before. STUPID. I think they should put a weight penalty on them but that probably won't happen.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer View Post
    I can't see how WoO or Lucas is maintaining local super racing. Hell, they are killing it with intended and unintended actions. The framework set up by Bob Memmer, for weekly racing, was exactly what weekly racing needed. It has all been eroded since his death. The national tours dictating what goes on in weekly super racing is precisely what is killing weekly racing. The more local the sport is, the cheaper it is.
    Sorry, I forgot how analytical everyone on here is. Super racing, AS WE KNOW IT, would not exist.....

    Geez, I realize the recent rule changes and allowances have hurt local racing. I'm simply stating that if the majority is on the same page with rules, the class will be better for everyone in the long run. For how many years have you been able to take a super late model anywhere in the country and be legal at almost any track and only have to change tires?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Batavia, OH
    Posts
    13,616

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by collateralDamage View Post
    Sorry, I forgot how analytical everyone on here is. Super racing, AS WE KNOW IT, would not exist.....

    Geez, I realize the recent rule changes and allowances have hurt local racing. I'm simply stating that if the majority is on the same page with rules, the class will be better for everyone in the long run. For how many years have you been able to take a super late model anywhere in the country and be legal at almost any track and only have to change tires?
    Since the UDTRA rules came out. Late 90s? But, that is gone now.
    Modern Day Wedge Racing
    Florence -1

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    There is a huge gap right now that is occurring with used chassis's. The latest and greatest late models/crates/modifieds are being turned over quickly. No one wants the used stuff because they are being built to last for less and less of a service life. 40 races is about the limit on some of this new stuff. That's a ton of money being rolled around every year between a select few with the funds.

    There has to be a competitive place to run these older chassis's where they don't have to compete against something new. I don't know how the rule should be worded but something has to be done. I don't know many people who want to spend 25 or 30 grand that want it to be worth 5-10 grand after 40 races. I know people do but there is a big gap right now because people don't want to buy 40 race old stuff to compete with less than 40 race old stuff. I think allowing a NEW chassis in a crate car or limited car is foolish for everyone but the chassis builders. I think every new late model chassis sold should be for an open late model and then let it trickle down though the classes. I don't mind crate cars and understand that it took the place of the old steel block classes and poor boy late model teams that couldn't afford to keep up with these 50K + wide bore engines. It's trickled around to the other classes too. I've seen wide bore steel block stuff too. The racetrack is the "great equalizer". The right racetrack and tech can take care of this on a situational basis. The fans aren't going to watch mega dollar car win every week and stay long. They want competitive action. Local racing I observe where the winner is compared to the middle qualifiers after a long green flag run. Lapping your mid pack qualifiers is a big no no in my book. It's time for action when that happens. I like the old "points by appearance" rules. More points by appearance the farther back you start. It's too easy for these guys qualifying up front to win races. It sucks for the fans too. A car .02 slower than the fast qualifier don't have a prayer unless he's in front. Then it turns into a real race.
    BUCKLE UP NOW, YA HEAR?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    The point of my post is that I've seen many fast qualifiers that can win from upfront but can't race worth a hoot in traffic or running a line different from qualifying. I think in racing there has to be a way to reward drivability and not just gross speed. Mix it up some and let the fans see some racing. I'm an old school racer and think the fast car should win the race, don't get me wrong there, but a fast car should be able to pass other cars. I'm seeing to many races these days where the winner can win the race and never pass a single car. That's BS.
    BUCKLE UP NOW, YA HEAR?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,014

    Default

    The truth is there is more money in racing than ever, and more technology. Prime example of this is our local USRA b mod class, the first year our local track ran b mods I helped a guy with an almost stock motor and a chassis you could see the front frame horn was bent on. He had fun and ran top 5. Now guys are unloading new cars out of toterhomes. They are paying people to set the cars up, buying tons of parts just to try them, and the cost is out of hand for the top few.

    I agree wide bore needs penalized, but also realize even in the budget classes it is out of hand. Another example is at my current weekly track street stocks are being advertised for sale in the 20-30k range used...

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3,123

    Default

    I want to keep this about technical things we can do to save late model racing. Racing format is a completely different discussion that we could drone on about for days.
    There is big money in racing and there always has been. You can't change that. You can't make a rule limiting how much somebody spends on racing. Again, I think the cars (late models) should be the same regardless of the engine. Getting away from this is what is watering down the lower crate classes. In my neck of the woods, about half of the crate cars are 2 years old or newer (many brand new cars this year) and most everybody has good stuff. Personally, I like it and we put on some pretty good racing by all accounts. Frankly, if someone wants to race old junk, late models (by almost every definition dating back to the 60s) is not what they should be racing. A guy can buy a new car every 2-3 years for under 10K. Meaning a new chassis. There's a ton of stuff on these cars that you can freshen up and move from one car to the next. Especially if you aren't changing brands all the time. Nowadays, there seems to be a widespread mentality that you need to buy a roller or turn-key car, race it for a while, sell it, and buy another roller or turn-key car. I personally don't understand that and believe that a lot of racers would save a ton money if they would learn to build a car themselves...and end up being better racers (by understanding their cars better) in the process. But anyway...I'm rambling.
    You can't keep money out of racing. But I think what we can do is create rules (particularly in the engine department since that is the 900 pound (or HP) gorilla in the room). In other words, create rules where the smart money will win rather than the big money. For example, if you have rules that allow a guy to spend $50,000 on a motor but he only has 10 more HP than a guy that spent $10K, I think that would be great.
    Before we even get into it, unless somebody has a shining example of it, claiming rules simply don't work. UMP modifieds are a prime example. I think if we had a rules package that allowed a guy to have something in that 650 HP range for around $15-20K and it was a rules package that was easy to enforce, we would really have something.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    Rules do cost money and someone is going to pay big $$'s to go around them. I like a 6" maximum frame height rule, drop rules, wheelbase and height rules. There is only so much you can do when you are regulating the dynamics of the car.
    BUCKLE UP NOW, YA HEAR?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    pa
    Posts
    218

    Default

    years ago a modified class near me used 320 drysump alum head motors, they turned them 9000 rpm and where getting out of hand with price [ buy todays prices they where still cheap] , they changed rules to 358 9-1 engine with steel heads , almost 300 hp difference, you where aloud to use your 320 if you wanted but had to run a restrictor plate, point being it evened the field, when your $20,000 320 broke you built a $6000 358, if you restrict a wide bore, and possibly even a open alum engine, wouldn't that make a deal like a ct525 look like the way to go in future.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rakracing View Post
    years ago a modified class near me used 320 drysump alum head motors, they turned them 9000 rpm and where getting out of hand with price [ buy todays prices they where still cheap] , they changed rules to 358 9-1 engine with steel heads , almost 300 hp difference, you where aloud to use your 320 if you wanted but had to run a restrictor plate, point being it evened the field, when your $20,000 320 broke you built a $6000 358, if you restrict a wide bore, and possibly even a open alum engine, wouldn't that make a deal like a ct525 look like the way to go in future.
    the problem is they would let them in the engine like the crates of today, no one techs them for the most part (on the local level),i like supers because its run what you brung and the engine over powers the car (it takes alot to hook these up, which to me is a challenge) with crates there is not so much of a challenge on set up, and yes I've owned both and have driven both
    if it was my decision, i would get rid of all the crates and limiteds, ill bet that over half would go back to supers (alot of them are spending plenty of money), then you could add the crate purses to to supers, there are plenty of lower classes to run if its a cost issue, hell know guys that spend 30,000 on a street stocks, if they have it they will spend it
    late models should be late models and thats it, drop all the different classes, crates were a great idea but it has gotten out of hand
    if you want my opinion, its all the different dam tires in the super world that drives me nuts, no need for all the different tires, soft, med, hard, and be done with it

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grt74 View Post
    the problem is they would let them in the engine like the crates of today, no one techs them for the most part (on the local level),i like supers because its run what you brung and the engine over powers the car (it takes alot to hook these up, which to me is a challenge) with crates there is not so much of a challenge on set up, and yes I've owned both and have driven both
    if it was my decision, i would get rid of all the crates and limiteds, ill bet that over half would go back to supers (alot of them are spending plenty of money), then you could add the crate purses to to supers, there are plenty of lower classes to run if its a cost issue, hell know guys that spend 30,000 on a street stocks, if they have it they will spend it
    late models should be late models and thats it, drop all the different classes, crates were a great idea but it has gotten out of hand
    if you want my opinion, its all the different dam tires in the super world that drives me nuts, no need for all the different tires, soft, med, hard, and be done with it
    You are ok with just cutting out half the late models?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRocket8 View Post
    You are ok with just cutting out half the late models?
    all im saying is make the late models one class, not 3-4, trust me, alot will go to super (there buying new cars to run crates today), and no you don't need a 30-40 thousand dollar engine,15-20 will get you in, a 525 will cost about 15-17 by the time you get it in the car(depending on the accessories) im just trying to throw out ideas here,no matter which lates you run, its going to cost money to run them
    purses can be better if there not split up between 2 classes ( better purses= better car counts, on the local level and with out the local level, supers will be gone at some point),
    we have to fix the local level if lates are going to survive and if it goes to all crates, well im out at that point
    ill find some other form of racing at that point, its going to take a little better purses on the local level, not a ton better but a little better, say 1500-1600 to win, and if the track is running both classes, they can and should combine the purses and just run supers, you will see the counts go up, it may take a little bit of time but it will grow
    again just my opinion
    Last edited by grt74; 05-29-2017 at 09:10 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Tombstone
    Posts
    209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grt74 View Post
    all im saying is make the late models one class, not 3-4, trust me, alot will go to super (there buying new cars to run crates today), and no you don't need a 30-40 thousand dollar engine,15-20 will get you in, a 525 will cost about 15-17 by the time you get it in the car(depending on the accessories) im just trying to throw out ideas here,no matter which lates you run, its going to cost money to run them
    purses can be better if there not split up between 2 classes ( better purses= better car counts, on the local level and with out the local level, supers will be gone at some point),
    we have to fix the local level if lates are going to survive and if it goes to all crates, well im out at that point
    ill find some other form of racing at that point, its going to take a little better purses on the local level, not a ton better but a little better, say 1500-1600 to win, and if the track is running both classes, they can and should combine the purses and just run supers, you will see the counts go up, it may take a little bit of time but it will grow
    again just my opinion
    Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner! You nailed it, the class is far too diluted and crates are killing interest for the fans because they are DULL and Boring, period. Some joker insinuated you had to spend $100k to run a super locally, that's BS. You could run a 2-4 year old car and a used engine for less than half that and spend less than these cratetards that $40k just on a new car. Now if your gonna run nationally and follow a tour, sure you want all new, but not a local weekly show. I blame the Fastrak guy for finishing off weekly supers by offering purses better to crates than they'd pay a super to get people to switch over to his club. No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. If you wanna make dirt track into club racing promote crates, if you actually want fans to watch and support it, go Super.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    474

    Default

    "No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. "

    So when a crate wins a super race is it still boring? LOL
    Most of the people who preach against crates, do so because they cant win in the crate class, and don't have any excuses left , such as they can't afford the big motor like the rich guys. And if they do run crates & get beat, its because someone is cheating.
    Crates in our area put on a very good show, engines get tech'd every week, and have kept a bunch of people involved in racing who wouldn't be if Open Motors was the only choice.
    It makes a lot more sense to spend $6000 on an engine to race for $800 to win then it does to spend $40,000 on an engine to race for $1200 to win.
    Last edited by MLR19; 05-30-2017 at 02:07 PM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Annapolis Md
    Posts
    285

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MLR19 View Post
    "No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. "

    So when a crate wins a super race is it still boring? LOL
    Most of the people who preach against crates, do so because they cant win in the crate class, and don't have any excuses left , such as they can't afford the big motor like the rich guys. And if they do run crates & get beat, its because someone is cheating.
    Crates in our area put on a very good show, engines get tech'd every week, and have kept a bunch of people involved in racing who wouldn't be if Open Motors was the only choice.
    It makes a lot more sense to spend $6000 on an engine to race for $800 to win then it does to spend $40,000 on an engine to race for $1200 to win.


    Well said but your beating your head against the wall trying to tell a few of these guys that...

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0
Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.