Where are we headed?

[FlatTire]

I've been around late models for 35yrs now and raced a spec/open motor for the past 12. As a driver, the feel and style is vastly different than it was 10yrs ago. I don't know if the laps times are any faster, but I know the corner speeds are definitely higher and that's due to increased traction from advancements made in shocks, and understanding aero. You barely have to lift to get these cars into the corner these days, and sometimes you don't. The less you lift, the more that motor plays a factor.

Another thing that I've noticed over the years that leads me to believe we are getting more out of our engines due to more traction is fuel consumption and oil temperatures. We've burned more fuel and seen higher oil temperatures than ever before.

So where are we headed......down the road of more expensive power plants. Until something is done about the amount of traction being generated, there will always be a need for more power.

[fastford]

been gone a few days and just got caught up, what if we go back to the old wedge style bodies but leave the modern suspension, i bet that joker would be fast. lol, you all have good points , matt, the only thing about your comparison of the accessory cost, is why should you need that expensive carb for a crate engine, some are bumping the 2k mark these days, whey not make them run box stock 600s, this has been my complaint about the crate idea all along, they come up with a class that utilizes a relatively inexpensive engine, then allow the ones that can afford it, buy all these expensive components , just never understood the reasoning behind it.

[Matt49]

been gone a few days and just got caught up, what if we go back to the old wedge style bodies but leave the modern suspension, i bet that joker would be fast. lol, you all have good points , matt, the only thing about your comparison of the accessory cost, is why should you need that expensive carb for a crate engine, some are bumping the 2k mark these days, whey not make them run box stock 600s, this has been my complaint about the crate idea all along, they come up with a class that utilizes a relatively inexpensive engine, then allow the ones that can afford it, buy all these expensive components , just never understood the reasoning behind it.

Willy's, Stealth, JDR, etc. all make top-notch carbs tuned specifically for the fuel curve of a 604. None of them cost more than $1200. Please show me these magical $2K carbs that are eating my lunch. Not to be a smart ass but this is just another example of people saying that people are spending money on NECESSARY things in crates that simply aren't even really out there. Everyone seems to think that crate races are being won by cars with $15K worth of motor bolt-ons and another $20K worth of trick suspension and light weight drive train parts. IT SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE. But this perception is spreading like wildfire and furthering the belief the crate racing is the death of late model racing when if fact it is keeping it alive in many parts of the country.
I never intended this to be a crate discussion...as I've stated...crates aren't the answer long term. But it's amazing how many misconceptions there are out there.

[MLR19]

The carb we run is a 750 Holley I bought used on ebay & sent to JDR to be rebuilt. including purchase price and shipping plus shipping to JDR & back & Johns rebuild charge, I have less than $600 in it. We have ran it for 3 years.
Are there people selling $2000 carbs, sure there are, but because some are gullible enough to buy them doesn't make them necessary. You can also buy a $400 balancer that saves a pound or two, but it's not an advantage. The crate cars that are winning are not doing so because of the engine.

[fastford]

mlr, all that stuff is an advantage if you add it up, matt, maybe the crates are not as out of control where you race as they are down here, i dont know, Go to talladegashorttrack.com and go to there face book page and check out the kid that has been murdering them for 2 years, he won last race there and his name is cruze skinner , no 11 , here is prof of what money can do because there is well over 50 grand in that car and he is un touchable, so if you all want to bring your box stock engines and older chassis down here and prove me wrong, i welcome you, i will be the first to admit i was wrong. by the way, the only time he gets beat is when they go to a big race where there are 20 more just like his.

[MLR19]

I am only trying to state that you don't need all that stuff to win, we have competitors who have spent the money you are talking about & they don't dominate. We race for fun, and consider a top 5 a good night, and it doesn't break the bank. If people listened to all the naysayers, if you don't have $50,000 in your car you might as well not even try. I'm done with this, obviously I don't know anything about REAL crate racing.

BTW I went to the Talladega page & the guy you referenced is 8th in points, so someone must have
outran him at some point. LOL

[fastford]

he dont come every week end , but when he does, he wins, it realy dont make any difference to me, as i dont,and probably never will adhere to this form of racing , i am just trying to make a point that crates were originally billed as an economical, poor mans form of racing and it is nothing but another form of super racing because of the lack of rules to keep cost down and the enforcement of these rules, but evidently , after observing crates from the beginning, i dont know anything about REAL crate racing either, i digress.....

[old17ford]

Getting back to Matts where are we heading its hard to say but down in south ga its hard for the low budget teams to compete with teams that spend on limed late models and crates as most teams do on supers .

[profab00]

smh. How come we have to argue over crate cost and that isn't the subject of the thread. Why don't we just argue politics or religion?

[A ron]

fastford isn't kidding about Skinner at TST. Not sure if it's true or not, but someone told me they had a to scale replica of TST in their backyard to practice on. Also, There was a big crate race at Whynot in Mississippi the other night and there MAY have been 1 or 2 cars that weren't a $50k ride. Mostly Black Diamonds, Longhorns, & Capitals. Even weekly racing crates down here are being taken over by these high dollar rides.

[A ron]

and Super racing on a weekly basis is almost non existent here

[grt74]

Willy's, Stealth, JDR, etc. all make top-notch carbs tuned specifically for the fuel curve of a 604. None of them cost more than $1200. Please show me these magical $2K carbs that are eating my lunch. Not to be a smart ass but this is just another example of people saying that people are spending money on NECESSARY things in crates that simply aren't even really out there. Everyone seems to think that crate races are being won by cars with $15K worth of motor bolt-ons and another $20K worth of trick suspension and light weight drive train parts. IT SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE. But this perception is spreading like wildfire and furthering the belief the crate racing is the death of late model racing when if fact it is keeping it alive in many parts of the country.
I never intended this to be a crate discussion...as I've stated...crates aren't the answer long term. But it's amazing how many misconceptions there are out there.

the best carb on the dyno,and im sure some will have something to say about it, is a holley hp 650
tweaked a little with air bleeds and jets
im also glad that some agree that crates are getting very expensive these days, and that if they wanted to they could run supers
again just make it one class and raise the weekly pay outs, if you go supers it will get rid of the engine tech argument,
and i do believe you can build a competitive car for 40,and ill show you how
blue front end rocket 10-15 (for a nice roller, they lost there value when the xr1 came out but they can still be very competitive)fresh used 430 13 degree 15-17, shocks new 5000, or a rebuilt to new used set 2500,and i think you get the rest
just because the national guys are running something a little newer and winning doesn't mean that they couldn't jump in a car thats a few years old and still win, you still have to drive the dang thing

[Matt49]

I think this goes back to a bunch of apples to oranges comparisons. Where MLR19 and I race (same tracks for the most part), junk isn't winning races. But their are guys spending on crate the way some of you think needs to be spent on a crate to be competitive and MLR19 and me and several others consistently outrun them in STANDARD stuff when it comes to the car itself. No unobtanium hubs, fancy brakes, zero drag bearings, etc. That's all snake oil.
Two HUGE misconceptions in crate racing:
1) A guy can buy a 10 year-old car with yester-year setup and expect to be competitive.
2) A guy needs to spend $40K on a car to be competitive.
Neither are anywhere near the truth and I don't care where you race.

[grt74]

I think this goes back to a bunch of apples to oranges comparisons. Where MLR19 and I race (same tracks for the most part), junk isn't winning races. But their are guys spending on crate the way some of you think needs to be spent on a crate to be competitive and MLR19 and me and several others consistently outrun them in STANDARD stuff when it comes to the car itself. No unobtanium hubs, fancy brakes, zero drag bearings, etc. That's all snake oil.
Two HUGE misconceptions in crate racing:
1) A guy can buy a 10 year-old car with yester-year setup and expect to be competitive.
2) A guy needs to spend $40K on a car to be competitive.
Neither are anywhere near the truth and I don't care where you race.

im glad you have it figured out, man thats great, but a lot of guys(im saying 50-60%) are spending enough to run supers on a local level, and once again if they would combine the classes and pay a 1500 to 2000 to win weekly deal, cars would come, reward vs cost and labor is the factor in racing, no one and i mean no one wants to win and still cant break even for the night
and im just talking about pit passes(say 3)fuel, gas there, and a rr tire or so, i think you get the point of what im saying

[Vap8102]

Matt,First, I'm not sure there's a good answer to your question for all regions of the country. Everyone on here has a point that makes sense for where they race. All of this discussion is academic until a region of track promoters or series gets together on the same page. A lot of ideas could work to control costs, but unless enough large groups come together around one idea, nothing is going to change. And the only thing that will make any groups come together is economics. If the big series start to fail economically, something will change.With that, here's the situation out west. There's a few unlimited budget teams, but they don't win all the time. And because of that and my personal experience, I don't buy into the "wide bore is killing LMs". Even if there wasn't a wide bore, are any of us that are concerned about cost going to go out and buy a fresh 35k standard bore Cornett? It costs 10k for a Cornett freshen whether it's a wide bore or not. None of us budget racers can afford a new top of the line standard bore motor anyway, so that's not the issue. Bottom line is when you race the top of the line class, someone is going to outdollar everyone else. So the solution isn't to tell a guy how much he can spend but rather make those dollars less relevant. One big factor that seems to be working out here is the D55 spec tire. I think other rules that reduce traction (a little) would help to further minimize the impact of big dollars.I run a nearly 10 year old Victory Circle with an even older SB2, both of which I bought used. I can run (and occasionally win) with any of the west coast cars. I have outqualified Clanton and Moyer with my old equipment on a big track. I know I have less equipment than those guys, but those tires that are hard enough to make sparks make those big dollars a lot less important. And I'd sure rather buy new edges every few weeks than the alternatives.BTW, we should be outlawing 4 way adjustables...

[Vap8102]

Matt,First, I'm not sure there's a good answer to your question for all regions of the country. Everyone on here has a point that makes sense for where they race. All of this discussion is academic until a region of track promoters or series gets together on the same page. A lot of ideas could work to control costs, but unless enough large groups come together around one idea, nothing is going to change. And the only thing that will make any groups come together is economics. If the big series start to fail economically, something will change.With that, here's the situation out west. There's a few unlimited budget teams, but they don't win all the time. And because of that and my personal experience, I don't buy into the "wide bore is killing LMs". Even if there wasn't a wide bore, are any of us that are concerned about cost going to go out and buy a fresh 35k standard bore Cornett? It costs 10k for a Cornett freshen whether it's a wide bore or not. None of us budget racers can afford a new top of the line standard bore motor anyway, so that's not the issue. Bottom line is when you race the top of the line class, someone is going to outdollar everyone else. So the solution isn't to tell a guy how much he can spend but rather make those dollars less relevant. One big factor that seems to be working out here is the D55 spec tire. I think other rules that reduce traction (a little) would help to further minimize the impact of big dollars.I run a nearly 10 year old Victory Circle with an even older SB2, both of which I bought used. I can run (and occasionally win) with any of the west coast cars. I have outqualified Clanton and Moyer with my old equipment on a big track. I know I have less equipment than those guys, but those tires that are hard enough to make sparks make those big dollars a lot less important. And I'd sure rather buy new edges every few weeks than the alternatives.BTW, we should be outlawing 4 way adjustables...

[Matt49]

Matt,First, I'm not sure there's a good answer to your question for all regions of the country. Everyone on here has a point that makes sense for where they race. All of this discussion is academic until a region of track promoters or series gets together on the same page. A lot of ideas could work to control costs, but unless enough large groups come together around one idea, nothing is going to change. And the only thing that will make any groups come together is economics. If the big series start to fail economically, something will change.With that, here's the situation out west. There's a few unlimited budget teams, but they don't win all the time. And because of that and my personal experience, I don't buy into the "wide bore is killing LMs". Even if there wasn't a wide bore, are any of us that are concerned about cost going to go out and buy a fresh 35k standard bore Cornett? It costs 10k for a Cornett freshen whether it's a wide bore or not. None of us budget racers can afford a new top of the line standard bore motor anyway, so that's not the issue. Bottom line is when you race the top of the line class, someone is going to outdollar everyone else. So the solution isn't to tell a guy how much he can spend but rather make those dollars less relevant. One big factor that seems to be working out here is the D55 spec tire. I think other rules that reduce traction (a little) would help to further minimize the impact of big dollars.I run a nearly 10 year old Victory Circle with an even older SB2, both of which I bought used. I can run (and occasionally win) with any of the west coast cars. I have outqualified Clanton and Moyer with my old equipment on a big track. I know I have less equipment than those guys, but those tires that are hard enough to make sparks make those big dollars a lot less important. And I'd sure rather buy new edges every few weeks than the alternatives.BTW, we should be outlawing 4 way adjustables...

Kind of goes back to my idea of making some rules that make it possible for the "smart" money to out run the big money.
The shock rule discussion could almost be an entirely separate discussion but let's go there for a moment. While I'm not a fan of shock rules in general, I think we need to stay out of the inerter business. That being said, where do we draw the line? My fear is that if you were to make a rule that said something like "no 4-way adjustables" then someone would come up with some hidden way of adjusting the shock that the average person (let's face it that's about what most "tech" inspectors are) wouldn't be able to pick out. Then we're going to end up in the business of tearing down shocks like they tear down motors in classes with a bunch of motor rules.
I've heard the idea of a claim rule on shocks. I simply don't think claim rules work on anything. UMP modified engine rules being exhibit A.