Where are we headed?

[Matt49]

MLR19 is exactly right. And the reason that the racing is so good is because we don't have a dumbed down rule package in our crate division. No shock rule, a two-compound tire rule, no left year shock and spring in front rule...it's a full blown late model setup with a crate engine. There isn't a lot of junk in this class. Pretty much everybody has good stuff. The sure way to kill the crate late model is to put rules in that make it unappealing to late model guys. If we started piling on silly rules, I would likely quit racing altogether. I can't afford a competitive open motor and I'm not interested in the UMP modified stuff that much.

[MaverickSprints]

Crates are DULL, I'm sorry but they just are. Underpowered bogging, droning and lack excitement. After lap 1 they usually space out evenly and then drone around the track for 20 laps. You posted this in the Late Model section, so you got a Late Model answer. Having everyone with the same engine eliminates another area that some people take pride in, building and selecting the right parts for best performance. No different than selecting the right shock settings, spring rates and stagger. Whats even worse is this new 602 class, somebody shoot me. Before weekly supers died in my area the team I was with last built its own engines and won pretty regularly locally. I'm not one who thinks I have to have the newest latest and greatest to be competitive, whether its chassis or engine. To me crates is socialized racing, forcing everybody to be the same, no creativity, no individuality. Limited would have been the better way to go, at least no one was forcing you to all run the same make or same cam. Crates are unappealing to late model guys.

[Matt49]

Crates are DULL, I'm sorry but they just are. Underpowered bogging, droning and lack excitement. After lap 1 they usually space out evenly and then drone around the track for 20 laps. You posted this in the Late Model section, so you got a Late Model answer. Having everyone with the same engine eliminates another area that some people take pride in, building and selecting the right parts for best performance. No different than selecting the right shock settings, spring rates and stagger. Whats even worse is this new 602 class, somebody shoot me. Before weekly supers died in my area the team I was with last built its own engines and won pretty regularly locally. I'm not one who thinks I have to have the newest latest and greatest to be competitive, whether its chassis or engine. To me crates is socialized racing, forcing everybody to be the same, no creativity, no individuality. Limited would have been the better way to go, at least no one was forcing you to all run the same make or same cam. Crates are unappealing to late model guys.

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

Spread bore gets 6" spoiler.

[grt74]

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

i just don't understand where 40 thousand dollars comes from, guys need to learn how to do business, a nice used piece can be bought for 20,yes an 11 degree 430 on the 2nd-3rd freshen, and on bull rings and 3/8 they wear the wide bores out, only 2 places i know that need a wide bore, and thats just for qualifying, eldora and knoxville, other than that you can compete anywhere in the country, drivability is still a factor, and the reason i guess that im on crates and limiteds is because there spending some serious money these days, so my question is where is the savings?????
and while not everyone is cheating them up, there are some areas where you better have more than a factory 604 or your not going to run in the top 3, again more money
make one late model class(crate or supers)but i hope supers, and pay a decent purse, if they keep paying 500-600 to win its just not going to last, truth hurts but it is what it is,THE TRUTH

i know alot of tracks are in a tight spot these days but its not the racers job to do the promoting and having a good relationship with the local businesses, sponsors and government
a promotor= a salesman
now go hustle up the people, show there is x amount of people coming and sell the advertising signs
theres several ways to skin a cat, but its still work to skin that cat


i don't know the answer but the definition of insane is, to do the same thing and expect different results

[grt74]

unless you go out and buy all brand new stuff, supers are not as expensive as one may think, there are plenty of nice low race used pieces out there
(alot of guys run 2-4 races on a brand of chassis and if they cant hook it up they sell it for another), engines and cars
just my 2 cents, i agree something needs to be done but to get everyone on the same page and work together, it won't happen, to many egos
rant done, ill leave it alone now
some things just need to change and alot of the older guys cant or don't want to change

[Matt49]

I think the big thing with the supers vs crate comparison is that we aren't comparing apples to apples. And by apples in this case I mean a competitive car capable of winning on a local or regional level.
If you compare apples to apples in that regard with supers vs crates, there is a HUGE cost difference. It's not just a matter of the initial cost of the motor but the maintenance cost (total cost of ownership) of that motor and the additional wear and tear on drive train and tires.
Super late model guys spend 3 times what crate guys do on tires and it's because of the motor. Super late model guys are frequently dropping transmissions and rear ends. Simply doesn't happen with crates nearly as much. And we're not even talking about things like the cost of a dry sump system that is pretty much necessary if you want to hold together 800HP for any period of time.
I'm sorry but this notion that the cost of running a competitive crate is close to the cost of a competitive super is nonsense. I'm pretty close with guys that are competitive in both classes (in different cars obviously) and the cost difference is enormous.
Obviously we are seeing different things in different parts of the country. I think a lot of people would be surprised with the quality of racing there is in the crate late model division here in Indiana. I see videos of races in the south that are exactly what MaverickSprint is describing. No doubt, crates on a big hooked up race track is like watching a go-kart race. But that isn't the recipe everywhere.
Anyway...back on point. I just think we need a class that is late model "cars" with a set of engine rules that is:
1) easy to enforce
2) keeps the smart money up front without keeping the big money out (that's impossible)
3) keeps the fans entertained on tracks where crates are not fun to watch
If we had something like this and a guy could spend 15-20 on a competitive motor, I'd be all in. But there would need to be unified rules so that guys can travel and be "regional".
I'm not saying to get rid of the "open" cars but the number of people that can afford to compete there (even at the regional and local level) is getting fewer and fewer.

[profab00]

I think we already had the answer and let it get away from us. All out super engines weigh 2350 with smaller spoiler and "spec" engine making 650 or so hp with steel block and spec heads weigh 2300 with more spoiler. 20,000 dollar engine versus 40,000 to 52,000. Body is way outta hand but I think we have to start with the 900 pound guerilla in the room.

[fastford]

MLR19 is exactly right. And the reason that the racing is so good is because we don't have a dumbed down rule package in our crate division. No shock rule, a two-compound tire rule, no left year shock and spring in front rule...it's a full blown late model setup with a crate engine. There isn't a lot of junk in this class. Pretty much everybody has good stuff. The sure way to kill the crate late model is to put rules in that make it unappealing to late model guys. If we started piling on silly rules, I would likely quit racing altogether. I can't afford a competitive open motor and I'm not interested in the UMP modified stuff that much.

crates are suppose to be an economical beginners class, where is the economics in what you describe?

[Matt49]

I think we already had the answer and let it get away from us. All out super engines weigh 2350 with smaller spoiler and "spec" engine making 650 or so hp with steel block and spec heads weigh 2300 with more spoiler. 20,000 dollar engine versus 40,000 to 52,000. Body is way outta hand but I think we have to start with the 900 pound guerilla in the room.

Makes some sense. But is 50 pounds enough to close the gap?
I was thinking something like 2500 pounds for spread bore, 2400 for anything standard bore spacing with 18 degree or less heads. 2300 for anything 23 degree heads. Just spit balling here.

I completely agree on the 900 pound guerilla in the room. I just don't understand why so many want to point the finger at things that are a drop in the bucket cost wise compared to the cost of ownership for a 900HP motor. People want to blame aero and shocks but once you get 900+ HP in a car so that you can qualify up front, you have to do something to get that thing stuck when it gets slick. So entered advanced aero and shock packages (they go hand in hand). We could go back to the UMP body rules of 1984 tomorrow and I guarantee there would NOT be a sudden influx of spread bore motors for sale on racing junk.
Whatever it is, it has to be simple to enforce. Tracks and series have enough trouble checking what is going on now.

[Matt49]

crates are suppose to be an economical beginners class, where is the economics in what you describe?

See, this is the problem. Crates were NEVER supposed to be an economical beginners class. Crate late model classes were developed as an alternative form of late model racing for guys that have late model stuff, understand how to setup and drive late models, but cannot afford a motor that costs more than their house to maintain every year.
What you have, at least in our area where we have kept a full blown late model car with a crate motor, is that the majority of the guys racing in this class came from super late models, modifies, or super stocks. There are a few guys that went out and bought 10 year old cars and will run in the back but for the most part it isn't an "entry level" class and was never intended to be. This mentality and dumbing down the rules is what is killing crate racing (and with it giving the notion that crates are killing all late model racing) in many areas.
Somebody that has never raced before is unlikely to jump into a 4-bar car and have much success driving it or figuring out how to set it up...regardless of HP.
Pure stocks are supposed to be an economical beginners class.

[MLR19]

crates are suppose to be an economical beginners class, where is the economics in what you describe?

I don't think crates are supposed to be a "beginners class" . Crates are saving late model racing at the local level. Someone said in a previous post that the late model car count declined
at their local track, this is common everywhere.
At the weekly late model shows around here, (if its a regular show) you might see 12-14 cars with 3 or 4 of those being crates. Then you have 3 or 4 that only race local shows but do so on a unlimited budget. The remainder are guys that race on a budget , and have a very slimchance
of winning a feature.
If you don't have an unlimited budget, but still want to be competitive, then the crate is a great option. Yes you will have people with an unlimited budget racing crates, but it isn't a huge advantage like it is in the open motor cars.
Someone also posted that setup on a crate isn't as important as a super, setup is what wins races in the crate class, because everyone is very close on motor, I would say setup is twice as important in crate racing. If your car is tight with 800 hp you can drive thru it with the throttle. Crates are all about keeping the car free & maintaining corner speed.
A few weeks ago when there weren't any crate races locally we ran our crate car with the opens, granted it was a slick track. We won our heat race & ran second in the feature, nobody in the stands could tell the difference between the supers & the crates that night.
Of course from the open guys that get beat by a crate, we hear "the motor must be a cheater", does anybody really think that you can cheat a 604 enough to double the horsepower?

[Matt49]

Unfortunately, the answer to your last question is yes. And the same people that believe that also believe that owning and operating a crate late model program is not much cheaper than running an open late model program and that if crates were banned tomorrow we would all just turn around and by open motors like nothing changed.

[fastford]

thats exactly the way they were presented to us down here to begin with, an economical beginners class where some one could go buy a 5k older roller, a 3k engine and START racing, withen a year the ones with a lot of funds were taking expensive top of the line rollers , putting these so called 3k 602 engines that they were spending way more than that on, so they could win a race against inferior equipment. now when there is a big race around here the top super drivers show up with both cars and usually wins. matt, we have had this argument before and i do respect your opinions so i will once again agree to disagree.........

[mcarter815]

B-mods and stock cars are where beginners should be starting. Crate or not, late models aren't a beginner class. Up here we don't have crate late models, but we do have IMCA spec motor late models. The payouts just aren't good enough to support even that on a weekly basis. $600 to win means that half of the field pulls in after a few laps.

[Matt49]

thats exactly the way they were presented to us down here to begin with, an economical beginners class where some one could go buy a 5k older roller, a 3k engine and START racing, withen a year the ones with a lot of funds were taking expensive top of the line rollers , putting these so called 3k 602 engines that they were spending way more than that on, so they could win a race against inferior equipment. now when there is a big race around here the top super drivers show up with both cars and usually wins. matt, we have had this argument before and i do respect your opinions so i will once again agree to disagree.........

No worries, man. I think a little bit of this is like I'm kind of trying to say - different perspectives given that crate racing is very different in different parts of the country. To your point, how something billed and what it actually is are two different things. There is a misconception that today you can spend $5000 and have a 604 crate ready to race if you have a car already. But that of course doesn't include carb, headers, water pump, fuel pump, power steering pump, distributor, ignition, etc. etc.
Around here, crates have been considered an alternative to open late models and usually turning laps right around the same as the UMP mods when the track is fast and a little better than the mods when it gets slick for obvious reasons. And right on with the supers when the track is slick. Crates have won about a dozen features against supers (and not junk supers either) around here in the last several years.
I'll put it this way. At our local track, in the top 10 in crate points are 3 former track champions in super late models and 1 former track champion in super stocks. It's hardly a beginners class. Good cars, good drivers, crate motors. It works for us. Again...it isn't the answer to late model racing in general...just a stop gap in my opinion to keep guys from completely selling out. And if you keep the rules on the cars the same, a guy that comes into some money or the right opportunity can just drop an open motor in and go racing with the same car.
This is why I'm a big proponent of keeping the car rules uniform for all breeds of late model. I don't want the opens to die and I don't want crates to go away either. But it seems we need something in between if we're going to make it long term. As much as I'm not for more classes in general at race tacks, weekly late model racing across the country is struggling. I would personally be okay if we just slowly migrated "crates" to the CT525. Fans like the noise and at tracks where the 604s just run out of legs, the 525s seem to be okay. But then the coil packs present a challenge if you want to go run with the supers at most tracks. But you can run a 604 against supers, still be legal, and at a lot of places get 100 pound weight break just because of the steel block.
I don't know...something has to happen soon or we're going to continue to lose racers.

[fastford]

we are on the same page, but they just decided to add a new class here, its called crate sportsman, 602 only, now we have 4 late model classes, including the support classes, thats 7 classes per night, where does it all end? they say, crates is the economical answer , yet there is not an economical competitive car out there , so i dont know, i guess time will tell....

[let-r-eat]

I don't see any economical fast cars in any class *including fwd style cars*.........fastford. LOL

[Matt49]

we are on the same page, but they just decided to add a new class here, its called crate sportsman, 602 only, now we have 4 late model classes, including the support classes, thats 7 classes per night, where does it all end? they say, crates is the economical answer , yet there is not an economical competitive car out there , so i dont know, i guess time will tell....

And, if we're talking about the same thing, that crate sportsman class was a result of exactly what I'm talking about. They wanted to add a shock rule and all of the 604 guys lost their minds (I would have been one of them), so they decided to create a new class with the 602 motor and a no adjustable shock rule.
So the problem here is that if a guy had a 604 and maybe a 602 as a backup motor (not a bad strategy if you run crates for points) your backup motor is now worthless in your regular class and if you want to go "down" a class, you have to spend money on non-adjustable shocks since all you have is double adjustable. Stupid rules.
And on the flip side of that, if a guy runs the sportsman class and decides he wants to step up to the 604, he has to run in a class where he'll be outclassed from a shock standpoint.
If they would leave all of the other rules alone, a guy could move from one class to another just by changing motors.
Around here if I were to come into an opportunity to have an open motor, all I do is switch motors and I've got a competitive car with the opens (a few adjustments obviously but all of the right equipment). On the flip side, if a guy that normally runs opens gets down on motors and drops a 604 in his car, he can legally run with the crates without changing shocks, shock/spring configuration, taking out bump stops, etc. etc. That makes a lot more sense to me.

[hipower17]

it doesn't matter what the rules are, if you don't have good tech at the local level to enforce the rules then whoever has the most money to spend or bends the rules the best, most of the time will win. ( TECH IS THE KEY ) just my opinion.