How can late model costs be reduced

[Josh Bayko]

You always say that. So what's your input on how to save dirt late model racing??
Just take a look at the pi$$ poor super late model counts at your area tracks PPMS and Lernerville. Other than Stateline and Eriez the super late model counts flat out $uck in the Western Pa. area.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Lernerville cans the super lates in 2018 and brings in the Rush crate lates.

Super late model racing in general doesn't need saving. Regional shows and specials do pretty well.

Weekly racing has big problems though. One thing that definitely affects weekly racing in a negative manner is the proliferation of specials. On any given weekend, within a few hours, there a special show paying a solid purse somewhere, and that's where the cars go.

And Lernerville isn't dropping supers for next year. Theyre not freaking out or anything. Sprints went though car counts like this just a couple years ago, and now they're back to pretty healthy. Car counts there go in cycles, and they have for years.

[billetbirdcage]

Here is part of the problem with any rule you make: YOU CAN’T UNLEARN TECHNOLOGY

Think about that for a second, no matter how a rule is written there will be a way around it or another way to do it that likely costs more money.

Example: Modifieds and there steel non adjustable shock rule. Shock tech has came a long ways over the years so that rule might have saved some dollars originally, but the tech was out there in the high end aluminum shocks. So the shock manufacturers just made a take apart steel shock with all the same tech and they now cost 425.00 and you can’t adjust it. So not you got mod guys that have 10 shocks for the car at 425.00 instead of having just 4 at 800.00 each. Look at a USMTS guy before they could run adjustable shocks, many had 30 or more shocks hanging on the wall. Not saying you needed that many but if you got a couple different RF shocks and a couple different ones per corner it’s easy to end up with a minimum of 6 to 12 shocks.

On to the LR behind: This rule won’t change anything. We had a discussion with a promoter (very well known and a former racer) about this at a private test, he was of the opinion that doing away with this would slow the cars down and help. I told him that I could remove the shock/spring off the back right now and could run about the same lap times. He didn’t believe me, so I proved it too him by using the transponders to get lap times and came in and moved the spring to the front and reran the car. Now granted we happened to be testing something that allowed this really easy, but we ran within hundredths of what we was running before and there was 8 LM’s there and we was 2nd quick out of the cars that where there and several of them was nationally touring guys. It’s just motion ratio and spring rate, I can mount the spring about where ever and will the right changes can make the car react the same as behind the axle.

Some rules will shuffle around the speed of the cars and who is fast as guys redo and figure out what they need to do to get the car back where it was but it’s just temporary IMO.

The vast majority of the people that left the sport can't afford the engines anymore. It's not so much the cost of the engine as it's the freshening costs to run one. The average freshening on a LM engine today is around 10K for 1200 laps, so it costs around 10.00 a lap just in engine costs and nothing else. People wonder why guys don't run all the laps, well a 50 lapper cost you 500.00 just on engine costs if you don't break anything.

I don't have the answer but the engine costs are the number one reason, IMO. Somehow get rid of the need for 900HP, most likely taking away the traction and aero is a start

[RCJ]

1.Motor
2.tires and wheels
3.Shocks
4.Fuel (car and Rig)
5.General maintenance
6.Body
You could make rules to reduce the cost of each one ,but why.''Run what you brung and hope you brung enough" has always been the draw of L/M racing.The toughness and level of skill is what makes it so special if you do succeed.

[GRT32]

The bodies are out of control. Bodies that were run 20 years ago, 1 shock per wheel and a smaller spoiler with hard rear tires will take care of alot of the engine problems

[ptown]

The bodies are out of control. Bodies that were run 20 years ago, 1 shock per wheel and a smaller spoiler with hard rear tires will take care of alot of the engine problems

I like everything you say except tires, leave those as is and let them groove and sipe.

[No_Weak_Links]

I with you guys on a lot of things, but how on earth is changing the way you bend sheet metal going to change the amount of money a body costs?.....and I have never heard of body prices out of hand and ruining the sport.

[fastford]

man , this thread has about depressed me , i might as well put all my crap on racing junk and go fishing because no suggestions on here will help, if all you are worried about is money, then its over, like someones statement about the 3 wheeler race at walmart above , money will still be there and will always have an advantage.

[President Clinton]

8" hard tire and all the $$$ in the world will not matter!!!!!!!

[Barbecueboy]

This is some really good reading guys......I like vandes post concerning promoting......for every great promoter out there , 50 others run it like a motel 6 and just think that turning on the lights still works.

The Jeanie is out of the bottle on the supers, and when they price themselves out of reality finally I'll be just as content watching a great sportsman race.........but for now, I'll pay extra to be there when they come.

[Josh Bayko]

8" hard tire and all the $$$ in the world will not matter!!!!!!!

Tell that to the guys that are spending late model money to run modifieds. There's a reason b-mods are thing now.

[Barbecueboy]

It's across all divisions.......a successful team I'm pretty close with has won multiple track championships and tons of races in the local superstreet class using the same motor ( refreshed each year) and they take care of their stuff.

Motor new was 7k( huge spend for them) but as stated, they take care of their stuff , the driver is smooth and easy on equipment........but in their class like every other ,there are always "those "guys that roll in with a 25k (or more)chassis/motor combo to race for 500 bucks every Saturday night......some of those guys can actually drive, most just have a bigger checkbook and a smaller bottle of talent and the 7k motor is still sitting in victory lane or on the podium more times than not.

And yes Josh, some of the mods that run down our way are every bit as high dollar as some of the late model classes.........

[grt74]

everyone always screams engines, you can buy a piece that will compete with national guys for 15-20,and guys are putting 15 in crates(just insane in my opinion)
i always hear someone say it take 70-90 thousand to build a super today, its just not true, you can buy a new (i cant use chassis names here, so don't ask) chassis 25000(a very well known top piece)engine used 20,shocks(people need to learn more on this as its not as expensive as these shock guys say) and trans, a top of the line piece for 50-55,it can be done
start money and winning purses(so people will to take a chance for the reward) is what it will take, just my 2 cents
facts are facts, have a sensible entry fee and raise the purse to 2000-2500 per week and watch the cars grow, it will happen and most guys running supers that i have talked too are will to pay a reasonable entry fee

[cgrace]

everyone always screams engines, you can buy a piece that will compete with national guys for 15-20,and guys are putting 15 in crates(just insane in my opinion)i always hear someone say it take 70-90 thousand to build a super today, its just not true, you can buy a new (i cant use chassis names here, so don't ask) chassis 25000(a very well known top piece)engine used 20,shocks(people need to learn more on this as its not as expensive as these shock guys say) and trans, a top of the line piece for 50-55,it can be done start money and winning purses(so people will to take a chance for the reward) is what it will take, just my 2 cents facts are facts, have a sensible entry fee and raise the purse to 2000-2500 per week and watch the cars grow, it will happen and most guys running supers that i have talked too are will to pay a reasonable entry fee

good post. personally i also think there is too many classes which causes lower car counts in ALL classes.

[Forward Bite]

I think Josh is right about all the special races for late models as a reason fans don't go to weekly late model races. Why should a fan go to weekly shows and watch 10 - 15 late models when he can see a special with 30 - 40 late models or more ?

[roughride]

I think this is actually pretty easy. Remember the wedge era and dwindling car counts? UMP saved late model racing. These bodies are out of control. Look down the front to back they are tunneled out so bad they are very close to big block mod bodies. Lift the nose off the ground a few inches, make the decking be level side to side, and reduce the spoiler to 4 inches or so. The cars would look exactly the same from the stands! And what the crap is wrong with a harder tire rule as long is everyone is on the same thing. Sipe it, grind it, I don't care. No soaking or treatments as I think that is a big part of rubbered up tracks. That Batesville race was a fiasco if you ask me and it can and will happen again. Dirt late model races should not be won on pit strategy. Whats next, 10 gallon fuel tanks so we have to have pit stops like NASCRAP?

[STRONGERTHANDIRT]

Great post!!!

[GRT32]

It's not the cost of bending metal, it's about taking the aero affect away so the engines are less effective. The bodies and deck heights are ridiculous.

[B_K]

Look at pictures of cars from a few years ago and now. Guys are basically driving wedge cars again. With the advance of suspension technology and as aero is these cars are now, you can use all the power that overpriced engine can produce. Not to mention the racing has suffered IMO, because you get out of line and the air messes with handling.

Need a nosepiece height rule.
Need to enforce and rewrite body rules.


Racing will always be about $$$ that's just reality. The powers that be need to make these things a little tougher to drive and put more emphasis back on the seat and no so much on all the other stuff.

[Bcollins82]

You want to save it you'll have to take traction away. Period. To take traction away you've got to limit rear axle down travel to take away the mechanical grip attained by it, along with the wedge car aero affect, then get the bodies back in check. Outlawing spread bore motors, allowing springs to be mounted to only one side of the axle, and worrying about tire rules is taking a piss in the wind until these other issues are solved.

[Barbecueboy]

As stated , I'll watch about anything race.......but watching supers and crates run together but scoring them differently is not at the top of the list.......confusing and dangerous in my opinion depending on what track your at.