The Dirt Tracks Keep Producing Talent

[CIRF]

I personally love dirt late models,,, but they have became similar to NASCAR in that money trumps talent!!!!! You can see some mediocre guys run very good because they can out money the competition. A lot of the true talent will never be given a chance!!! I understand racing takes $$$ but talent needs a way to be showcased. A poor racer from the projects will never have a shot, but the same poor kid and let him be good at ball and he has a shot at making it one day!!

You make a good point, slick willie.

He was the most consistent of the three and that is how he ended up the ARCA Champion as you know.

I'm not going to say Justin is better then Bell or Larson because, they both have a better resume but, like I said Justin has done a decent job in Nascar. Justin just finished 3rd in the points in the xfinity series only 9 points out from the championship so, I would say he has held his own in that series.

Kid, I'm working on memory here but IIRC Stenhouse and Speed both had better and more consistent seasons and would have been more deserving. But it's all a moot point, now. Here's how Allgaier backed into the championship.

By the way how is your wife doing?

The wife is doing well, Kid. She stabilized at about 90% and has been that way for 3 or 4 years now. No problems other than not quite being 100% and she gets pretty gimpy when she overdoes it. She works and functions as she always has and we avoided surgery, which are very good things.


Thanks for asking!

I would say Schrader had a good eye for talent wouldn't you.

And besides that KS is good friends with Justin's dad. Kenny's ARCA driver Austin Theriault, is the 2017 ARCA Champion. I believe Springfield was Theriault's first time on dirt and he gave a very good account for himself by running 2nd and leading 30 some laps.

Bell and Larson have Kieth Kunz to thank for their open wheel resume...with that being said I think Bell and Larson are the type talent you only see come along every 15-20 years...

You're absolutely correct 32. But only in regards to their midget resume'. Both Larson and Bell won a lot of races in dirt open wheel cars outside of midgets. Larson won the sprint portion of the 2011 4 Crown driving for the Hoffman's and has 5 USAC National Sprint wins to his credit and none of those 5 wins were driving for KKM. Larson also won several WoO races and KKM had no part in those wins. Bell won some sprint car races driving for Rick Ferkel and more recently he has won some WoO races. KKM was a big part of both of their dirt career but they were very successful with other owners, as well.

I honestly believe that Larson is a talent that comes along once in a generation given his continued dirt wins and the Rolex 24 win. Whether Christopher Bell measures up to the bar Larson has set remains to be seen. It'd be fun to see Bell and Larson slug it out for a Cup Championship sometime. That would be one of the few scenario's that would prompt me to pay anymore than a passing interest in NASCAR.

[KAOS]

To me Larson loves racing Bell loves what racing does for him.....He will be out before the age of 35

[baalmond@gmail.com]

Allgaier won 6 races that year in Arca, Speed won 4, Stenhouse 2. Thats hardly backing into a championship...

[bullring]

Cool video CIRF. I'd remembered that incident but had forgotten that was Stenhouse involved in it

ARCA titles are different now. The NASCAR money getting involved in that has made it like NASCAR that you have to be on the right team to get a win. I wouldn't put a lot of recognition into an arca championship anymore since its become all about ride buying also.

I think what Larson has done and hopefully Bell will do are great for the dirt guys. But was anyone else surprised Rico didn't do better with his chance?

[jr29]

The only time I watched Allgaier in a late model was at a Nascar night at Pevely around 2003 and he won the feature in a 40+ car field. If memory serves, korte, Shirley, Terry English, Weaver and a lot of other fast St. Louis and Illinois cars were there.

[CIRF]

Allgaier won 6 races that year in Arca, Speed won 4, Stenhouse 2. Thats hardly backing into a championship...

Sorry, but Allgaier entered the final race at Toledo needing a miracle to emerge from that race as ARCA champion. Wins, laps led, etc., were meaningless at that point. The fact of the matter is Allgaier backed into the championship due to the silliness of Speed and Stenhouse. IIRC, if either Speed and/or Stenhouse finished better than 22nd Allgaier mathematically would be eliminated from any chance of winning the championship. Stenhouse finished 25th and Speed finished 34th out of a 35 car starting field. If that ain't backing in then it's hard to say what is!

[CIRF]

To me Larson loves racing Bell loves what racing does for him.....He will be out before the age of 35

I think I'd call that bet. Bell will be 23 years old in December, so according to your prediction he'll be completely out of racing in just 12 years. As good as he appears to be it's hard to fathom he'll only last another 12 years.

Bell (along with Larson) will be competing in the Turkey Night Grand Prix (USAC National Midgets) at Ventura, CA on Thanksgiving night and he'll most certainly be at The Chili Bowl to defend his crown at that event. Bell races the midgets and sprint cars every chance he gets throughout the season. Early last July he ran a 3 straight nights with the USAC National Midgets at 3 little bullrings, Macon, IL, Lincoln, IL and the Illinois State Fairgrounds in Springfield, IL. He won at Macon and Lincoln and ran 3rd at Springfield. He won the prelim night of the Kings Royal and ran a close 2nd in the KR. All the while racing the full schedule in NASCAR trucks. That is hardly the schedule of a guy that is racing just for the money.

[kidrock]

CIRF, I understand what your saying but, in my opinion Stenhouse and Speed might have been consistent for all but, one race and that was the last one. Allgaier lined up and raced just like Stenhouse and Speed throughout the season and like I said but, himself in position to win the title and at the end of the day it's his name on the championship trophy.

Glad to hear the wife is doing good. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!!

[CIRF]

CIRF, I understand what your saying but, in my opinion Stenhouse and Speed might have been consistent for all but, one race and that was the last one. Allgaier lined up and raced just like Stenhouse and Speed throughout the season and like I said but, himself in position to win the title and at the end of the day it's his name on the championship trophy.

Fair enough. I understand your point of reference, as well. However, it was stupidity on the part of the two guys who were the only drivers with a chance of winning the season championship without any silly shenanigans that put Allgaier in position to win it, not his cumulative season long performance. Let me be clear, I'm not knocking Allgaier, he turned an unlikely opportunity into a championship. But the fact is, given all the circumstances, he still backed into it.

Glad to hear the wife is doing good. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!!

Kid, thanks for the well wishes, the wife and I both appreciate them. Her recovery without surgery is just one more blessing we can be thankful for on this, and every, Thanksgiving.

You and yours have a blessed and joyful Thanksgiving, as well!

[kidrock]

Fair enough. I understand your point of reference, as well. However, it was stupidity on the part of the two guys who were the only drivers with a chance of winning the season championship without any silly shenanigans that put Allgaier in position to win it, not his cumulative season long performance. Let me be clear, I'm not knocking Allgaier, he turned an unlikely opportunity into a championship. But the fact is, given all the circumstances, he still backed into it.

Kid, thanks for the well wishes, the wife and I both appreciate them. Her recovery without surgery is just one more blessing we can be thankful for on this, and every, Thanksgiving.

You and yours have a blessed and joyful Thanksgiving, as well!

I agree, and to think all they had to do was finish the race but, they couldn't even do that.
by the way Thanks

[hoosier race fan]

My perspective has always been that there is a difference between drivers with exceptional talent and drivers that just know how to race. Talented drivers are fast no matter what they drive, and get the absolute most out of their equipment. Sometimes even too much, occasionally gaining notoriety as a “checkers or wreckers” driver. Drivers that just know how to race may not always be the fastest, but they know how to utilize their skill and equipment to their best advantage. Drivers that can play the strategy and take full advantage of opportunities to win when they might not have the fastest car. They are often content to let others use up their equipment while they save their tires and come on strong at the end. Talented drivers and drivers that know how to race are both capable of championships, they just often take different paths to winning them. Kyle Busch has unbelievable talent, but someone like Jimmie Johnson is a great racer. Kyle Larson has incredible talent, while someone like Matt Kenseth is a great racer. Rico Abreu is a talent, Donny Schatz is an all time great racer. Daron Clayton is a talented driver, Dave Darland is a champion racer. Bobby Pierce is a talented young driver, while Billy Moyer has been an exceptional racer. Don’t interpret any of these comparisons to mean that a talented driver isn’t a good racer, or that a good racer doesn’t have talent. To be champions, they need a little of both.

In the example that has been cited throughout this topic, Stenhouse and Speed are both talented, while Allgaier was the better racer that year. I’m not sure why it had to turn into an argument. It’s just a different combination of talent vs. racing ability.

I’m sure some of my comparisons are way off. I’ll just cover my stupidity by ending my post with LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!

[CIRF]

Scott Speed was not all that good. Period. But, I was lucky enough to have seen Ricky Stenhouse Jr. win several races during the dirt track portion of his career, and dirt racing is something RSJ revisits periodically. He won a USAC National Midget race at Du Quion just a couple of years ago and he gives a pretty good account of himself most every January at one of the toughest events there is. One thing is for sure, Allgaier didn't come close to having the success on dirt that Stenhouse did/does. And once and for all, Allgaier didn't win that ARCA championship, Stenhouse and Speed gave it to him. Nuff said.

Oh, and just for the record, no amount of LOL!!! will cover your stupidity.

[hoosier race fan]

Scott Speed was not all that good. Period. But, I was lucky enough to have seen Ricky Stenhouse Jr. win several races during the dirt track portion of his career, and dirt racing is something RSJ revisits periodically. He won a USAC National Midget race at Du Quion just a couple of years ago and he gives a pretty good account of himself most every January at one of the toughest events there is. One thing is for sure, Allgaier didn't come close to having the success on dirt that Stenhouse did/does. And once and for all, Allgaier didn't win that ARCA championship, Stenhouse and Speed gave it to him. Nuff said.

Oh, and just for the record, no amount of LOL!!! will cover your stupidity.

Thank you for just further proving how much of a jackass you really are.

[CIRF]

Thank you for just further proving how much of a jackass you really are.

I didn't start this crap, you did. Revisit and reread post #10 of this thread with an open and objective mind and you might just revise your list of who is and who isn't a jackass. I don't expect that to happen but give it a whirl anyway.

We can discuss racing or we can spend an inordinate amount of time attempting to compose clever insults. However you want to proceed is fine with me because coming from you I'm happy to wear any name you throw at me like a badge of honor.

[hoosier race fan]

I didn't start this crap, you did. Revisit and reread post #10 of this thread with an open and objective mind and you might just revise your list of who is and who isn't a jackass. I don't expect that to happen but give it a whirl anyway.

We can discuss racing or we can spend an inordinate amount of time attempting to compose clever insults. However you want to proceed is fine with me because coming from you I'm happy to wear any name you throw at me like a badge of honor.

LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!

Go back a little further to post #3. I made a complimentary post about dirt track racers from the late model ranks performing well in the Xfinity series, similar to your original post about Bell and Briscoe. Then you followed it up by disparaging those same drivers in post #8. Like a jackass. You couldn’t let a compliment of drivers that gained experience in late models stand without saying something negative. In post #10 I pointed out your negativity towards anyone that doesn’t have an open wheel background. So if I’m stupid, a jackass, or anything else for calling you out for making negative comments about those drivers like the jackass you are, then I guess I am guilty. As you can see, you were being a jackass before I ever said anything about you in post #10. You weren’t alone is this thread. It started off positive. But you like to seize your opportunity to interject your open wheel arrogance whenever possible. I can’t say I am at all surprised that someone with such arrogance would take pride in being a jackass and wear it as “a badge of honor.”

Proceed to do so.

LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!

[CIRF]

Post #8 wasn't even directed at you with the tender feelings! LOL! It was directed at Kidrock.

With that being as it may, I'll waste the time to engage you......again. Check the record. The guys that came up through the dirt open wheel ranks are far and away more successful in NASCAR than the guys who came from generic dirt late models. It's been that way since the days of Kenny Schrader. That statement isn't denigration, it's fact. Please point out something, anything, in post #8 that isn't credible and provable. You can't, can you? And that's why you're pissed.

Now have a great Thanksgiving and if you want to watch bonafide NASCAR talent returning to their dirt roots go to SpeedShiftTV, log in and buy the 77th running of the Turkey Night Grand Prix broadcast tonight. Kyle Larson, Christopher Bell and Chase Briscoe all will be there driving midgets along with guys like Kevin Thomas Jr., Sunshine, Shane Golobic, Spencer Bayston, Brady Bacon, Dave Darland, Ronnie Gardner, Tanner Thorson and Justin Grant who are just as good as the 3 NASCAR guys.

You get butthurt waaaaaaay too easily.

Jackass? A badge of honor, indeed!

[hoosier race fan]

You are absolutely right that many drivers that have made it to the top NASCAR series have had successful open wheel experience in sprints, midgets, silver crown, etc. I really enjoy watching those classes and I like to see drivers from the dirt tracks do well, no matter what classes they ran on dirt. I have been fortunate to witness many of them competing at the dirt tracks in the midwest. I’ve also been able to see some of them in NASCAR and IndyCar. I attended Jeff Gordon’s last win at Indy. I also watched Bryan Clauson’s final Indy 500. I was thrilled to see them, along with many other drivers I admire, be successful in two of the world’s premier racing series. If you go back and read my posts, I never said anything negative about open wheel racers, and I’m not “butthurt” about their success in any way. I commented about your arrogance in regards to open wheel racers and those from other racing backgrounds.. That is why I rarely attend open wheel races in person anymore. The arrogance of open wheel fans like you is just not something I care for. If being irritated by the arrogance of you and others with similar attitudes means I’m “butthurt” then I guess I am, but it is absolutely not due to the success of drivers with an open wheel background. I have always supported them, and will continue to do so.

Despite my respect for open wheel racers, I’m not arrogant enough to think they are the only racers talented enough to be successful in NASCAR, IndyCar, etc. There are plenty that have come from other disciplines that have been successful. There have also been many from the open wheel ranks that were not successful. That, Mr. Facts, is a fact. None of the top IndyCar drivers today ran on dirt. That is also a fact. Ed Carpenter’s open wheel success is parallel to Justin Allgaier’s late model success. But that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve respect for their ability. Most of the best in NASCAR ran legends, pavement late models, etc. Whether success or lack thereof is fact or not, I don’t see the benefit of making negative comments about those drivers or disrespecting them.

But you couldn’t let a compliment stand. You had to add your negative commentary on the drivers that you couldn’t wait to run down with negative comments.

You know, like a jackass. If you want something credible, and provable, there you have it.

LOL!!!!!!!

[bullring]

"Open wheel arrogance". Lol

[CIRF]

Yep, you're butthurt!! Hahahahaha!

Year in and year out I attend considerably more dirt late model shows than dirt open wheel events. Many are weekly DLM shows at our home track. There are signs of DLM tunnel vision at almost every DLM event we attend. I see a bit less of the tunnel vision and much less tribalism at dirt open wheel shows but it's still there. You sir, are no exception. Since I'm an open minded fan of racing it never ceases to amaze me as to all the tribalism and defensiveness on both sides of the situation.

Hopefully you took the time to purchase the PPV and watch Larson, Bell and all the rest at Ventura put on a spectacular show at Turkey Night with the lead sometimes changing 3 or 4 times per lap. It was a fantastic show and worth every penny. That is if you could get past your condescending point of view.

It's the holiday season, try not to be so butthurt!

[Cardirt0]

The one thing you can say for Allgaier is he good but not great and hes done what he can to stay in racing for what he can do..you have to give him that... He just don't give up, you cant say he ant earned what he has.....