Droop Rule and State of DLM Racing

[onlyfacts]

Just put monoleafs back under them. One fixed eye and one fixed length shackle.

Not legal in Lucas and Dirtcar.

[onlyfacts]

It's all about the$$$ same as everything else. If you want to keep the cost down 500lb spring on all corners steel non adjustable shocks and 358 cu.in. steel block. Obviously no one cares about the money involved, it's gotten too big to make real change. That's all right one day supers will be a one series national tour.

With out perimeters on how the suspension must be built, where and how those springs are mounted this would be the most expensive rule ever. Chassis builders and engineers would have a field day with different motion ratios and components. Everyone would need a new Chassis and components.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Not legal in Lucas and Dirtcar.

Nope. But if they really wanted to change the game for the better as far as $$$, they would do it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Why are we discussing the Lucas/Rumley rules? Lucas done screwed that pooch and everyone jumped on. That isn't Ray's fault. And it was way worse than what Ray is doing. That is all I said.

There is so much money being wasted to make a car get some of the benefits of Rumleys suspension. Had it became the norm, people would simply still be working to maximize it with parts that already existed. Yes, Ray is probably partially trying to help folks that think all they have to do is let their wheel drop down more.

[onlyfacts]

Maybe we could all learn something from this years Chili Bowl. 342 cars entered with no rules for 10,000.00 to win. Go to a the biggest USAC midget race with a lot of rules and you might see 70-80. The cost for a competitive midget to run that race isn’t far from a late model. Go to a local track with USAC midgets and the local racers there are finically stressed as Local Late Model teams at a Lucas or WOO race. So rules may be the problem.

[pfd60]

True, but the mechanics of the suspension of an open wheel car is much simpler than a DLM. Solid front axle and two link rear suspension on a birdcage.
Enforce the body rules and stop qualifying! I am an open wheel fan also. Most midget shows drivers pill draw and then they run passing points. 99% of those races there is more passing in a heat than you will ever see in a DLM
heat.
I used to race open wheel but have been in and out of the DLM for the past 4 years in central Illinois. I just hope to finish in the top half. I'm returning this year but I cannot believe the changes made in the 18 months I haven't raced. I agree the bodies are out of control. Something needs to be done. The chain rule is cheap and a easy way to keep the car from rolling over so far on the right front. Which will take some areo away from the new wedge cars. But they need to enforce a front nose height as well on the right front corner. Just my .02

[CIRF]

Prior to 2016, I could build any suspension in my garage that I saw fit and bolt it on my car as long as the rear was a beam axle. Now, you are really only allowed a 4 link with very specific measurements given for bar locations. Many parts I used in the 90s, such as brake floaters and spring rods are expressly forbidden despite very low cost. You are not even allowed to use steel wheels! It's madness.

Thanks for the explanation of how they've caused the obsolescence of parts and the imposition of certain measurements and wheel composition.

Again, for us uninformed, how does this make limited late models out of unlimited super late models?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Thanks for the explanation of how they've caused the obsolescence of parts and the imposition of certain measurements and wheel composition.

Again, for us uninformed, how does this make limited late models out of unlimited super late models?

The dirt late model was a racing machine with very simple rules. A carbed engine, a 104" wheelbase, engine setback location defined. Basic body dimensions. You could built it how you saw fit. Now, it is cookie cutter. Now it is in a small box. Now, you can only run one suspension. How much more limited does it have to be?

That is the definition of limited racing. The "cheap" limited classes spell out specific things you cannot have. This is what they have done. Perhaps you are trolling? The difference between a street stocks and a super street used to be screw jacks on the suspension.

A SUPER car would have flexible suspension links if the owner wanted. A SUPER car would have 2 rr shocks if the owner wanted. A SUPER car could have as many heims on the lr corner of the car as the creator wanted. A SUPER car would be allowed to have brake floaters that mod guys run. When I grew up at the dirt tracks, that was a SUPER LM. Free to be whatever it wanted under the sheet metal.

[onlyfacts]

The dirt late model was a racing machine with very simple rules. A carbed engine, a 104" wheelbase, engine setback location defined. Basic body dimensions. You could built it how you saw fit. Now, it is cookie cutter. Now it is in a small box. Now, you can only run one suspension. How much more limited does it have to be?That is the definition of limited racing. The "cheap" limited classes spell out specific things you cannot have. This is what they have done. Perhaps you are trolling? The difference between a street stocks and a super street used to be screw jacks on the suspension.A SUPER car would have flexible suspension links if the owner wanted. A SUPER car would have 2 rr shocks if the owner wanted. A SUPER car could have as many heims on the lr corner of the car as the creator wanted. A SUPER car would be allowed to have brake floaters that mod guys run. When I grew up at the dirt tracks, that was a SUPER LM. Free to be whatever it wanted under the sheet metal.

You are 100% correct. What we have now is not what Late Model Racing evolved from. Series, Tracks, Racers and Promoters all have ideas for more rules. Problem is they have to make rules for the rules they already made. I remember when if you got beat you went home and worked harder. The guy that worked the hardest usually won. Now we have a bunch of winers that cry everytime someone wins with something they don’t have. So the series and promoters react to the wining with more rules. Sad where Late Models are headed.

[CIRF]

How much more limited does it have to be?

I don't know, that's why I asked, you tell me.

That is the definition of limited racing. The "cheap" limited classes spell out specific things you cannot have. This is what they have done. Perhaps you are trolling?

Perhaps I'm not.

A SUPER car would have flexible suspension links if the owner wanted. A SUPER car would have 2 rr shocks if the owner wanted. A SUPER car could have as many heims on the lr corner of the car as the creator wanted. A SUPER car would be allowed to have brake floaters that mod guys run. When I grew up at the dirt tracks, that was a SUPER LM. Free to be whatever it wanted under the sheet metal.

I see where you're coming from and I now know what you believe an unlimited super late model should be. I would only add that if what you want is a totally unlimited, unencumbered, uninhibited then is it accurate to assume that you'd be in favor of any width tire, a right front that hangs 2' beyond the right rear instead of just a foot, a sprint car style wing and/or 6' left side boards? Now that's my idea of an unlimited super late model stock car.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I believe the very basic dimensions we had 20 years ago were fine and should still be in use. That includes tire size, track width, and wheel base dimensions.
Very basic rules are necessary so that we know what to bring to the track.

[Austin34471]

Gotta draw the line in the sand somewhere. In my opinion, they need to find the areas they want to leave for creativity then lock the rest down. The people saying “rules cost money” are flat out wrong. Those rules are made to keep us from spending money. And most of them do a decent job. Example: no carbon fiber or titanium suspension parts. Example: no enclosures under the car or underbody aerodynamic devices. Example: no inerters. Example: spoilers must be flat and can’t be elevated above the deck to create a winglike effect. Example: no independent rear suspension. Take those rules out and you could build a car that went SECONDS faster around a racetrack. The teams that spent 100s of thousands of dollars in the wind tunnel and using CFD simulations, engineering new rear suspension, etc would be in another zip code as ole Jimmy that shows up in his 2009 GRT. The droop rule is a decent rule and save money in the long run if implemented correctly. Those saying that they need to open up the rule book and give us a wide open sandbox to play in should be careful what they ask for. Jmo

[hucktyson]

A 4 link suspension with a panhard bar and shocks like we run leave you with hundreds of thousands of possible combinations , that along with track conditions that constantly change leaves plenty of room for the little guy to hit the setup on a given night. Geting the spoiler 70" in the air and the nose sealed off favors people with a lot of money to waste. The idea that with no rules a dude with a stick welder under an oak tree in his back yard is going to outsmart teams of engineers is absurd . The more open the rules are the more those engineers can do

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have never seen an affordable aero dependent car. I am in favor of Ray's idea, the Rumley rules, no way. The problem, Huck, is that 99.9% of those adjustments are worthless.

[CIRF]

I believe the very basic dimensions we had 20 years ago were fine and should still be in use. That includes tire size, track width, and wheel base dimensions.
Very basic rules are necessary so that we know what to bring to the track.

You sound like you want to somewhat limit late models. So, by definition you you want a partially limited late model as opposed to a totally open anything goes. That’s cool, Just making sure.

[CageFaraday]

Let’s wait and see... if you want to run up front the Chassis builders or teams that have spent more on engineering and technology will be in control of the costs and that is only facts. Not trying to be irrational but I don’t want see Super Late Model Racing completely die.

The best rules make money less effective, but its impossible to stop someone from spending what they want, its a free country(for now). The droop rule is so minor in its effect, I don't see any cost involved at all, only setup adjustments. Super Late Model is at a cross roads, they can continue on there current path of, "High Downforce_High Traction_High Cost" which is unsustainable. Sure from a strictly fan perspective right now everything is cool, the cars are flying, the racing is good, Yip-Pee! On the downside, those of us who've been around a while are noticing some ugly trends. The first is, the cars are and have been turning over with greater and greater frequency. Second, with the increase in roll overs we've also had more injuries and sadly deaths too than in decades past, even with and sometimes because of the improved safety equipment we have today. We went decades with hardly a serious injury or death in the DLM ranks after Jim Dunn. Todays car is nothing more than a return to the infamous Wedge cars of the early 80's through mechanical manipulation and body rules being ignored. Third, people are leaving the sport with about as much frequency as the roll overs, for many reasons, but mainly cost involved. When I say cost I don't just mean money, I mean time and labor involved as well. The time needed to make these cars do what they do is more than most family men can afford to give. So while things may look great at the top of the sport to watch, the base is eroding alarmingly fast.

We no longer have the Dennis Erb's coming thru the ranks with only 1 helper(Dad), 1 car and 1 engine. We no longer have the "Shoe String Traveler" showing up for the World 100 with a suburban pulling an open trailer. The reason why is the costs, in money, in help and in time. Its a fools errand to try and even make a show against Wind tunnel shaped, shaker rig tuned, Nascar powered and NASA designed competitors. But a good bit of that bought and paid for advantage can be nullified by writing rules that hinder the traction potential of the cars, ie less downforce. The reason dirt late model has always been so appealing, both to fans and competitors is the dirt itself, the great equalizer. If you fix the downforce/traction issues, the engine/tire needs and costs take care of themselves.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

CIRF,

We can play semantics all day. It takes some skeleton rules to define what the racing vehicle is. We have to know what a late model is to build one. We had that from the early 80s until 2016. By your current stance, a super LM has not ever existed.

[Bubstr]

I don't believe there is any fix for more or less rules. They will make rules and the racer will find a way around them, until it implodes. Then there will be the next best thing coming out.

No rules was how Knoxville was in the 50s 60s. They started with a modified. Then it was OHV engines, then wings and larger tires. By the early 60s, they had sprint cars racing with sprint cars in desqise. I even seen a blown Hemi in a sprint car in 62. Trouble was, these cars couldn't run anywhere else. They needed some uniform rules or these cars couldn't run anywhere else. It's like Super Mods, If you want to race one, you better live close to NY.

The real problem is pricing the local guy out. With him a lot of his fans go away. Believe it or not, there was Miget races that got 50,000 fans in the seats of Soldier field in Chicago in the 50s. Tech priced out the little guy and took his fans with him. It will happen to DLMs sooner or later, but something will emerge as the next best thing. If you don't think it can or will happen, just talk to a few of Birkey or Brady Smith, or Daren Miller fans. They have trouble going to races since their driver isn't there.

[fastford]

We no longer have the Dennis Erb's coming thru the ranks with only 1 helper(Dad), 1 car and 1 engine. We no longer have the "Shoe String Traveler" showing up for the World 100 with a suburban pulling an open trailer. The reason why is the costs, in money, in help and in time. Its a fools errand to try and even make a show against Wind tunnel shaped, shaker rig tuned, Nascar powered and NASA designed competitors. But a good bit of that bought and paid for advantage can be nullified by writing rules that hinder the traction potential of the cars, ie less downforce. The reason dirt late model has always been so appealing, both to fans and competitors is the dirt itself, the great equalizer. If you fix the downforce/traction issues, the engine/tire needs and costs take care of themselves.

I hear you mr, robin hood , lets take from the rich and give to the poor , which im one of , and that will make the playing field level again , that way when i pull up with my old ford camper and my 1999 hallmark trailer , i will have just as good of a chance of winning as joush richards , that would be great.......

[CageFaraday]

I hear you mr, robin hood , lets take from the rich and give to the poor , which im one of , and that will make the playing field level again , that way when i pull up with my old ford camper and my 1999 hallmark trailer , i will have just as good of a chance of winning as joush richards , that would be great.......

I never said take from the rich, I said make his cash less effective so he can't just buy a victory. You can do what you want to, but Bubstr is right, it will eventually kill itself and something else will hopefully spring up to take its place, maybe... In business they have found its much more cost effective to keep a customer than to try and win them back after they leave or quit. I'd rather see the same logic used on supers, just like they did in the mid 80's with the wedge, change the rules around some so money has less effect. I myself am not holding my breath, I've already found something else to do. I'm done with the discussion, but I hope Ray's attempt at bringing back a minuscule amount of sanity is fruitful and contagious.