Thoughts. After having a talk with Moyer’s crew chief at the World 100 Saturday......

[HoosierDirtFan]

Thoughts.
This post is for this who have raced in the passed or currently race now.
After having a talk with Billy Moyer’s Crew Chief Saturday of the World 100 weekend one topic that came up and he believed it was some it could be a simple fix to help save Late Model Racing put a cap on the type of sho is used on dirt late Models and ban the ones that are not really needed. Basically outing every team in the same type of shocks and some how capping the price spent. He though was give the teams a time table to implement get the new shocks.

[HoosierDirtFan]

This guy has been with billy since the mid 1989’s.

[Kromulous]

Race fans could not fathom how much time and money can be spent on Shocks.

Such as position dependent valved shocks, Inerter style shocks, it goes on an on.

I can already here the crickets, you dont need all that... Yes, you better be on your A Game if you want to tangle with Dport and Zero, thats what its going to take.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Race fans could not fathom how much time and money can be spent on Shocks.

Such as position dependent valved shocks, Inerter style shocks, it goes on an on.

I can already here the crickets, you dont need all that... Yes, you better be on your A Game if you want to tangle with Dport and Zero, thats what its going to take.

Inerters are already illegal.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Sounds like Billy's guy is more worried about dumbing it down than making it cheaper. If it's "shocks you don't really need" then you don't need them. Problem solved.

[Josh Bayko]

Inerters are already illegal.

And have been for like 5 years.

[Josh Bayko]

Changing the aero and taking downforce away obsoletes a lot less stuff and saves more money than taking shocks (that may or may not be as exotic) away.

[ImCryn2]

Race fans could not fathom how much time and money can be spent on Shocks.

You hit the nail on the head there. Plus it all sounds easy when you're not the one doing the work.

My guess is, Steve feels this way because it's the most technical part of the car and that's where he feels his team is behind.

[hjr2]

Can anyone recommend things to read or watch to learn about the shocks on DLM's?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You hit the nail on the head there. Plus it all sounds easy when you're not the one doing the work.

My guess is, Steve feels this way because it's the most technical part of the car and that's where he feels his team is behind.

You can spend as much time and money on any part of the car you desire. 10 years ago, TC was the Boogeyman keeping folks down. Now it's shocks. If you haven't maximized what you already have, it's YOU keeping you down.

[ImCryn2]

You can spend as much time and money on any part of the car you desire. 10 years ago, TC was the Boogeyman keeping folks down. Now it's shocks. If you haven't maximized what you already have, it's YOU keeping you down.

The guy like me who builds every part of the racecar himself still has to have a shock guru to run up front. That's if you can find someone that'll build you what you need vs just something that'll get you by. You can have the perfect racecar, but one shock not cooperating, it's garbage. You've been around, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

I'm not against the 'high dollar' shocks, I think the money spent on them is still a bargain when you consider the difference they make. The most challenging part is finding a shock guy that wants to help instead of just making a dollar.

[tb1545]

Seen it on here before when this topic has came up and ive heard it from several smarter setup guys.

You CANT unlearn technology. And when you create a rule to get rid of that technology, teams spend more money to accomplish the same thing in another way.

Also, when you create rules to limit technology whether it be something like a "spec" shock, the rule is only as good as the tech and knowledge of the tech guys to enforce it. There was a big street stock race that one of the top 4 guys got DQed for a spec shock not meeting tolerances (by an afco rep supposedly). After afco took the shock apart at their shop, they found the shock was damaged and not tampered.

I am all for seeing them try something to reign in things a bit. I believe aero probably needs to be messed with first to limit the effectiveness of the suspension.
If they ever do go trying to limit shocks, my personal opinion from a limited shock knowledge is the gas is the cause of all the evils. A straight oil filled shock with no gas pressure would be what i would look at.

[fastford]

i agree and disagree , shock technology has allowed for the use of more HP , especially on slick tracks , where a high hp engine in the slick was not as important in the days of plain old oil shocks , we build every thing also and am lucky enough to have a shock man that can take older shocks and make them perform with new ones at a reasonable price , this is the only reason im against a shock rule , i realize every one dont have this luxury just like every one cant build there own engines that are competitive , kind of a catch 22 i suppose....JMO.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The guy like me who builds every part of the racecar himself still has to have a shock guru to run up front. That's if you can find someone that'll build you what you need vs just something that'll get you by. You can have the perfect racecar, but one shock not cooperating, it's garbage. You've been around, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

I'm not against the 'high dollar' shocks, I think the money spent on them is still a bargain when you consider the difference they make. The most challenging part is finding a shock guy that wants to help instead of just making a dollar.

I hear you. I somewhat agree. But, a shock is a damper. It smooths out oscillations of the suspension resulting from bumps. We use them as crutches and weight transfer devices, to a degree, even though that's not really what they are supposed to do. I believe there are plenty of guys that can build you something that runs within a tenth of a second of what you have now. That had certainly been my experience.

The idea that you have to spend $8k on a set of Penske and the LMJ Ohlins you bought 10 years ago are junk, does not fly with me. Shocks are not complicated. You are shearing a fluid. It makes a force proportional to shaft velocity. It isn't quantum physics.

[Kromulous]

Inerters are Illegal, just a reference to the past was all, and the time spent on them.

I talked to the Head Penske Engineer at PRI and what he told me was literally Pandora's box for shocks. Also think about this, its not the price of the shocks, and the costs to have them worked on, its the time testing that you need to log to figure out what you need to do to said shocks that has financial impact. Plus like Imcryn2 said, you have to find a guy that's willing and capable to do it.

Time to build a Street Stock !

[Rocky]

How exactly do you limit shocks? If you go to non adjustable oil shocks now you have to have a whole shelf full of shocks with springs on them smashed to different rates. I don’t know as much about late models as anyone associated with Billy Moyer but how do you do it?

[billetbirdcage]

Rocky, you can't to a degree. While you could limit adjustable shocks to only 1 adjustment per rebound/compression and eliminate 4 way adjustable shocks, but then like you said guys will have several shocks that are already valved and increase the number of shock you carry. The only real way you're gonna limit the cost is go to a spec shock.

Not a fan of the idea. Why are you gonna start with something that is way low on the list of what costs the most on a LM.

A guy can also make the argument that I can spend just as much on spindles as I do shocks if you arguing the time and money spent on research. I could cut the front end off a car and try several different front ends and do something different every week and go test it until I found something better. It's not any different then testing and revalving shocks and spending a ton that way.

Steve Norris (billys crew guy - I assume) has been around forever and has my respect, but it's not the feasible and is way low on the list of the things that cost a national team.

[billetbirdcage]

I would bet anything if you talk to any of the owners of a touring team the top 3 or 4 expenses would be these on average and I bet not one of them would list shocks

Engines
Labor - crew expenses
Tires
Fuel/travel expenses

[Rocky]

Engines and tires. Especially tires. If you’re REALLY worried about decreasing cost limit to stock valve angles and take all the titanium and throw it in the dumpster. Maybe a cubic inch limit too. Say 410 or 427. I have integra shocks by a guy up north and don’t run last because of my shocks or motor it’s because I can’t drive a hot nail up a snowman’s behind. I am just out there for fun. Shocks don’t cost as much as motors.

[Rocky]

By the way don’t think I am advocating any of that it’ll never happen but if cost is to be addressed maybe address stuff that’s expensive like motors instead of stuff that’s cheap like bodies.