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Thread: let's chat

  1. #181
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    question #1----is there 200 pounds of ballast bolted to your car
    question #2---can you achieve good handling without that 200 pounds in the car

    In my observations the last few years ---guys have a hard time getting to minimum weight without sacrificing handling
    Now if you are gonna take another 200 off (if it's even possible) where will that land you

    JMO
    Brad
    www.race-1.com

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad hibbard View Post
    question #1----is there 200 pounds of ballast bolted to your car
    question #2---can you achieve good handling without that 200 pounds in the car

    In my observations the last few years ---guys have a hard time getting to minimum weight without sacrificing handling
    Now if you are gonna take another 200 off (if it's even possible) where will that land you

    JMO
    Brad
    www.race-1.com

    Don't really know yet. We are in the process of purchasing most likely an xr1! We have a lot more 602 races (and cars) in our area than 604. But there is a decent series for the 604's that gives the 200lb weight break for 602's. I just believe there might be an advantage with a shifter tranny and well thought out weight placement.
    Last edited by ZERO25; 02-21-2020 at 09:16 PM.

  3. #183
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    If im not mistaken isn't the 602 all steel ? Either way im not seeing you getting 200 pounds out of the car without the 604 weight being 2450 and a sub 150# driver. Even then i don't think your percentages will be close. I think your money is better spent else where than on a trick trans. I can see a guy being able to cut a good lap in the right conditions but not racing all night night doing it

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jking24 View Post
    If im not mistaken isn't the 602 all steel ? Either way im not seeing you getting 200 pounds out of the car without the 604 weight being 2450 and a sub 150# driver. Even then i don't think your percentages will be close. I think your money is better spent else where than on a trick trans. I can see a guy being able to cut a good lap in the right conditions but not racing all night night doing it
    My trick trans is gonna be FREE, so Im not too concerned about that. My best friend owns a tranny shop, so I just gotta tell him which one I want built.

    Our tracks are pretty slick so Im thinking around 52-53 left, 51-52 rear. We're only talking 350hp so hopefully want need a bunch of rear.

    Envy is selling a nice qa1 shock package for $1200 as we have a $200 claim rule.

  5. #185
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    in this era of late models --i don't think rear percentage numbers are key to anything
    these designed race cars have soooo much traction that hanging a fat guy off the back hurts more than helps
    however total weight is different---it still takes "X" amount of power to move "X" amount of weight
    like one poster said--the driver can cut a good lap every once in awhile but putting all them laps together to have a good finish could be another story
    now on the flip side---602 LM racing is becoming popular and if you have a decent amount of races that you can attend where it's apples to apples under the hood---then I say go for it--but I don't expect consistent good results running 602 against 604

    JMO
    Brad
    www.race-1.com

  6. #186
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    Im having a hard time understanding the difference of .28lbs/hp....or are the advertised hp much more different?

    I could be dead wrong, but when the track slicks off, I believe the difference is negligible.

    Either no one has tried one or they don't want to let the cat outa the bag! lol

  7. #187
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    in todays late model era---slick track or not, traction does not seem to be the issue
    I get what you are saying but I have seen a guy switch out 604's from old to new with a 15 to 18 difference in power and claim it is whole new ball game with that little bit of power.

    talking 602 to 604 ---I think not only the power difference but the RPM differences keeps them from playing well together
    602 peaks at 5400 and only carries a decent line to 5800 then at 6200 she drops like a rock
    while the 604 peaks at 6000 carries decent to 67 and will work past that if needed (not recommended by Race-1 but it will do it)

    plenty have tried running 602 against 604 and what I have heard from those guys is you are running at 110% all the time to maintain position---advancing position is rare

    Brad
    www.race-1.com
    Last edited by brad hibbard; 02-28-2020 at 12:51 PM.

  8. #188
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    I appreciate your input Brad, I know you have far more experience with these crate motors than I do!

    Lets just say I have found some very interesting manual transmissions that are just as light as a Bert/Brinn.

    We'll mainly be racing the 602 class and using that experience hopefully to compete in the 604 series.

  9. #189
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    staying with your thought process---I do have to say that restarts are huge in the crate game
    the torque of the 602 already matches the 604 at restart RPM and couple that with a 2 speed trans you should be able to make a spot or 2 on starts---if the driver can get in the prefered groove quickly after the start then maybe you have something.

    here is a suggestion ---use a 750 carburetor to enable the engine to breathe a little longer
    we have not used anything other than 650's for several years to keep the restart strong but in your case with the tranny ---the start should have plenty of giddy-up but you are gonna lay down early----a 750 carb will help that
    I might even try a big header---both of those are the opposite of what we do but we do not sell to guys with 2 speeds so there is more to be considered

    just thinking out loud---might not work at all but you are already outside the box so I was staying with it

    Brad
    www.race-1.com

  10. #190
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    Didn't even think about those options, but 2 of our tracks are big momentum tracks and that should help!

    My thought process for the manual trans was the re-starts where Im sure I would have an advantage. Since it will be free anyway, all Ill be out is some time......actually a lot time, as Ive scoured the internet looking for the best option! lol

    Thanks for your input!

  11. #191
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    Based off The last few post i have to agree with both of you. If you can get the trans for nothing and intend to race primarily with 602s i would say go for it. I originally thought you were thinking that you might have a advantage running against 604s on a nightly basis. You really won't know until you try. Most of us tend to sway people in the typical direction of the masses not because we're afraid to try things but money is so hard to come by these days for racing that we hate to see it spent in vain and another racecar ever up parked vs supporting the sport

  12. #192
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    Ive never been shy about trying something new. I try to think things through thoroughly before making a decision. Of course, they don't always work out! lol

    Our car came with a Bert, so we wont be sidelined if my manual doesn't work out. I will say this, there are some interesting later model manual trans that look appealing. Hopefully, the weight of one will be close to that of a Bert when we're done with the machine work.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad hibbard View Post
    staying with your thought process---I do have to say that restarts are huge in the crate game
    the torque of the 602 already matches the 604 at restart RPM and couple that with a 2 speed trans you should be able to make a spot or 2 on starts---if the driver can get in the prefered groove quickly after the start then maybe you have something.

    here is a suggestion ---use a 750 carburetor to enable the engine to breathe a little longer
    we have not used anything other than 650's for several years to keep the restart strong but in your case with the tranny ---the start should have plenty of giddy-up but you are gonna lay down early----a 750 carb will help that
    I might even try a big header---both of those are the opposite of what we do but we do not sell to guys with 2 speeds so there is more to be considered

    just thinking out loud---might not work at all but you are already outside the box so I was staying with it

    Brad
    www.race-1.com
    I may not be following the logic completely.

    Both cars restart at peak torque (400 lbs). The 602 has the advantage of shifting (returning to peak torque) at a higher ground speed, while the 604 is falling off peak torque, albeit at a lesser rate.
    Why would you give up torque for top end?
    Depending on the difference in ratio during the shift, might it be advantageous to retain as much torque as possible?

    After that, it is simply a matter of maintaining momentum with the gearing to keep pace.
    Last edited by 95shaw; 02-29-2020 at 08:01 PM.

  14. #194
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    [QUOTE=ZERO25;2309605]In my area, a 602 lm gets a 200lb weight break against the 604's. Im thinking a special built 3 or 4 spd might equalize the hp on re-starts and help keep the momentum through the corner.[/QUOTE The clutch, external, will be your downfall, rotating drive line weight. What are the minimum weight specs?

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by 95shaw View Post
    I may not be following the logic completely.

    Both cars restart at peak torque (400 lbs). The 602 has the advantage of shifting (returning to peak torque) at a higher ground speed, while the 604 is falling off peak torque, albeit at a lesser rate.
    Why would you give up torque for top end?
    Depending on the difference in ratio during the shift, might it be advantageous to retain as much torque as possible?

    After that, it is simply a matter of maintaining momentum with the gearing to keep pace.
    I was probably speaking a little too general in that post---but my thought process at this point is to help the poster and work on the weak areas of his idea and build on the strong areas
    whether I agree with the concept or not---maybe we will learn something along the way

    both engines are not going to restart at the exact torque numbers but for sake of conversation lets just say they are-- and that statement would be with the same gear and bert style trans

    with that scenario the 1st couple car lengths of the restart everything will be equal
    BUT with the traction in these new late models they are under powered by hundreds of HP with any crate-----so being able to enhance that gear ratio for 60 feet should be an advantage getting to 1st corner

    the bulk of what we use for components here at Race-1 on both crate engines is chosen for acceleration and not peak HP----this could be the real fix to restart issues (2 speed trans)

    remember this is just a chat---I am not changing our program but simply tossing out thoughts to help the concept for the guy taking a swing at it

    you can never hit the ball if you don't swing the bat

    Brad
    www.race-1.com

  16. #196
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    The purpose of any discussion is to open the possibilities there are more ways to arrive at the same destination.

    We both see that compromises are being made, both on restarts, and also on the long run.
    We each see opportunites for gain in both areas with a 2 speed setup.

    The direction we, or whoever tries this idea, may ultimately lead to confirmation, or rejection of this as a viable concept.

    I see an opportunity to allow more top speed through final gearing, with the added benefit of better restarts.

    Just putting it out there.


    As far as rotating mass, there were stock case clutchless trans made by small shops in the early 90's. Being able to use 2 locked gearsets after getting rolling should be little problem with only a small gain in rotating mass.
    Who says rotating mass is a bad thing on a momentum type track?

    Finding the correct step in gearing to make max use of it may be the problem.

    Anyway, fun to think about.
    Last edited by 95shaw; 03-01-2020 at 01:45 PM.

  17. #197
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    Rotating mass is the big dilemma......how much is too much? That's probly gonna be the biggest issue!

    Just for fun, I thought about showing up with a 6 or 8 inch diameter driveshaft......that should get a few weird looks! lol

    Most people in racing ask ..why......I like to say ..why not?

  18. #198
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    the lightest rotating mass from crank shaft to drive shaft i have ever seen was a 3 peed ford B&W with the second gear removed and the old cone type clutch , as close to strait drive as your gone get and very easy to adapt to that chevy bell housing , it also had an aluminum tail housing......

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZERO25 View Post
    Rotating mass is the big dilemma......how much is too much? That's probly gonna be the biggest issue!Just for fun, I thought about showing up with a 6 or 8 inch diameter driveshaft......that should get a few weird looks! lolMost people in racing ask ..why......I like to say ..why not?
    We'll in this insistence the above mentioned driveshaft diameter. The seat belt bolt would likely be the "why not" but i like your thought process lol

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastford View Post
    the lightest rotating mass from crank shaft to drive shaft i have ever seen was a 3 peed ford B&W with the second gear removed and the old cone type clutch , as close to strait drive as your gone get and very easy to adapt to that chevy bell housing , it also had an aluminum tail housing......
    I am sure it has some sort of cluster shaft correct?
    I think that is where the power get's gobbled up in conventional transmission vs bert/brinn style

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