let's chat

[JustAddDirt]

With all the newer rocked over on RF setups, Does anyone make a spacer that will flatten the carb out more.
The traditional angled spacers that I have seen the LF corner of the carb is the lowest corner ( leveling the carb in early 2000's left front 2 foot in air days). Seems to me the LR corner needs to be the lowers corner of the carb, and the RF the highest. Has anyone made anything like that yet?

Just random thoughts from my brain. happens a lot, just sometimes not so great of an outcome.

[brad hibbard]

in supers or open engine competition usually there is no carb spacer rule for height so compound angle spacers are common where the carb is angled toward the left and toward the LR at the same time ---this is possible with 1.5 to 2 inches of spacer to work with

in the crate world most rules dictate a maximum of 1 inch
working these angles into 1 inch of space is difficult
our original tilted spacer was tipped to the left 7 degrees
it left no room to do any antireversion work under the spacer so it was not real good on restarts

our updated version still only tips to the left but the angle was cut to 3.5 degrees which gave us the opportunity to work on the bottom side of the spacer to increase acceleration for restarts
it races very well and restarts excellent
here is a link to it
http://race-1.com/i-23432925-cii-100...acer-4150.html

many dirt late models today have the engine tipped toward the rear and that compliments our angle to the left perfectly

Brad
www.race-1.com

[RW57]

I saw that the hunt the front guys ran second at the Southern National's pretty impressive considering it was a 604 they pulled out of the corner. Kyle Bronson won and I will assume it was a maxed out 604 as money is not a problem for them as it is not for several teams they out ran one local team from my area that I know they got one. I'm not saying they are cheating just getting all they can get.How often in your experience does a 604 straight from GM out run the big spenders. I don't like Bronson but I thought it was a class move to admit Joiner was fastest car all nite but lap car messed him up allowing him to pass for lead.

[doyle hargraves]

Brad have you done any testing with the Willy’s super bowl system? See a few guys running them but I’m not convinced they are worth the price.

[RW57]

Good question bout the Willy's system I know a team running one they swear by it. Watching the Willy's videos got to admit it's pretty impressive but it's pricey.

[doyle hargraves]

Yeah you just don’t know about some of these what I call “trinkets”. I’ve been around racing a long time and seen about a thousand must have gadgets come down the pike and most of them fizzled out.
My thinking is as long as the jets and power valves stay submerged in fuel the engine doesn’t care how it got there but what do I know??

[billetbirdcage]

Not saying it's a big deal, but if you watch some video's of a fuel bowl on a pass or on a dyno there is a ton of aeration in the bowl due to a number of factors

1. High PSI, think a garden hose at low pressure vs a straw at higher PSI both can flow the same amount but the amount it aerates the fuel is quite different

2. High or low fuel input into bowl. A needle and seat is for the most part spraying the fuel in above the fuel level (there are bottom feed needle and seats that comes out the end of the seat instead of a window in the side of the N/S). Again think spraying water in a bucket above the water level vs sticking hose below the water level

3. Size of Needle and seat. Again back to the diameter vs Pressure to flow a certain amount, more pressure more aeration.

Now consider how much fuel consistently the engine is getting when it may be aerated 10% or 90% at different times. Non or less aerated fuel is going to be more consistent and easier to tune and thus can optimize the tune much closer then you could with all the inconstant aeration.

Again how hard are you leaning on the tune/Air fuel ratios.

Now would I buy it, probably not for a crate. Is it better in theory yes but does it translate to any power or benefit? the million dollar question, lol.

You might be surprised to see the entire bowl look like solid foam

[billetbirdcage]

For people not familiar with this, here is a real simple way to explain a regular bowl set up vs what the super bowl does

STD: think spraying a garden hose with your finger over it into a bucket to keep the bowl filled varying how much water you let come out of hose by looking at the level of water in bucket

Super bowl: think the hose is in the bottom of the bucket and there is a hole in the side of the bucket at the level you want it filled too. The fuel just runs out the side and back to the tank. Fuel is flowing as much as the pump can pump all the time.

Way over simplified but gets the basic idea across

[brad hibbard]

birdcage---my hat's off to you that was an excellent description
I love simple (easy to relate) explanations

You hit the "how" it works and "what" it is---- perfectly
You added some "why" we would use it explanation and I completely follow and agree with you but would like to add just one more aspect of the "why" we use it

drivability---the superbowl system maintains a constant jet pressure at all times----this enables the carburetor to not be influenced by G forces or rough track conditions----
the tune will be constant no matter how rough the track ---how hard the driver brakes or how tight the corner is

great discussion

Brad
www.race-1.com

[RW57]

I was amazed when I saw the video of the fuel bowl with out the super bowl.I turn around 600 holleys backwards because of the side hung float bowls. If you get in corner hard enough the side hung floats lose control of fuel causing the car to stumble off corner. Sure makes for some strange looks when you pull off hood and people see carb turned around.

[billetbirdcage]

Brad, I agree if you have the budget for it nothing wrong with the super bowl and adds a ton of constancy to the Air fuel, I'm just trying to not sound like a commercial for them. With the teams I help many that use an open engine use them (high compression and leaning on the motor at times pretty hard and most are higher budget teams where the cost isn't gonna take away from something else needed) but on the crate teams (usually low budget) they usually don't just because they need more important or pressing things over spending that kind of money on that.

That being said, there are a few things that a low budget guy can do to help for not a lot of money and get some of the benefit while allowing that money to be spend elsewhere to get larger gains in finish position/price money.

1. Use the largest needle and seat you can, .150 or larger will allow you to run way less pressure and reduce the aeration. Also keep in mind the larger the N/S the less PSI it will hold before it floods or pushes past the N/S, many .150+ N/S won't hold more then 5 PSI

2. Use a bottom feed needle and seat. This lowers where the fuel comes out the N/S by roughly 5/8", which is below the fuel level where a normal N/S is just about at the top of the fuel level.

3. Do you really need 8 PSI fuel pressure, again refer to #1. I can use a .150 N/S and have less then 5.5 PSI and feed a crate wide open all the way around a half mile track

4. Orientation of the window's in a STD N/S: The 2 windows in the N/S should be clocked so they face side to side in the car/openings in the fuel bowl. This allows the fuel to go unobstructed into the bowl, where if the windows was facing front to back it has minimal area to get directly into the bowl. Study the inside of the bowl and this will make more sense, as I'm not doing a good job explaining this.

5. Angled spacer or tilt entire engine

6. Float styles: probably not gonna have to worry about this as most carbs are gonna be center hung and have circle track type floats and jet extensions where needed but always good to verify and correct if needed.

[billetbirdcage]

Also a side note, seeing power benefits from the super bowl are going to be hard on a dyno. You just can't replicate the G forces, bumps or leaning of a car on the dyno.

A prime example of this was a friend of mine that worked in the engine shop of a major cup team: They came up with a deal for the carb to manifold attachment that reduced the vibrations to the carb on the track. On the dyno it showed almost no gain, but on Daytona or Talladega it was worth 1.5 MPH which at the time on a restrictor plate engine was 6 to 8 HP

[brad hibbard]

nice content there birdcage
I actually printed that post and pinned it next to my desk for something to think about---it all makes sense

I do have a question about #2 the bottom fed N/S

2. Use a bottom feed needle and seat. This lowers where the fuel comes out the N/S by roughly 5/8", which is below the fuel level where a normal N/S is just about at the top of the fuel level.

not sure I know what you are talking about with that

Brad
www.race-1.com

[billetbirdcage]

nice content there birdcage
I actually printed that post and pinned it next to my desk for something to think about---it all makes sense

I do have a question about #2 the bottom fed N/S

2. Use a bottom feed needle and seat. This lowers where the fuel comes out the N/S by roughly 5/8", which is below the fuel level where a normal N/S is just about at the top of the fuel level.

not sure I know what you are talking about with that

Brad
www.race-1.com

Fuel comes out at bottom of N/S vs the windows in the side of a STD N/S with is about 5/8 higher

[brad hibbard]

who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks
that is awesome stuff
thank you for sharing with us
I think you are kind of on the same mind set as me---I tell my customers --if they have a secret that they don't want told --they better not tell me
because if it works and makes something better and/or saves someone money or heartache ---I am going to tell the world

much appreciate the information Mr. birdcage

Brad
www.race-1.com

[doyle hargraves]

Thanks billet!!

[billetbirdcage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zftUFW9MfrM


"The primary bowl (on the right) actually had a top feed n/s with a .250" needle size and the secondary was a normal top feed .110". The primary n/s was run at 2 psi (low psi-hi flow) while the secondary was run at 6 psi"

Start at about 11 seconds in and set to .25 playback speed in setting at the lower right hand of video. PSI is all related to the size of the N/S. 2 PSI kept the front bowl full. . . .2 PSI (Grins)

*Note the front of the engine is too the right in video

[billetbirdcage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PehQUKwQX8E STD top feed .150 N/S

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOJKcvTKQAg Bottom feed .150 N/S

run at .25 speed and see the difference, the STD bowl is almost 100% foam

[brad hibbard]

Mr. birdcage
you are certainly cutting into my sleep time--LOL
thank you---I am paying attention

Brad
www.race-1.com

[billetbirdcage]

HMMM, not sure if all of the wix stuff is gonna be made in mexico or if it means any changes in quality but worth some research