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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Late_Model_Mark View Post
    Part of the allure of open wheel racing to me is the push start. Just like in my other world of nitro, there was nothing better than a front engine nitro dragster push start back in my younger days. Second was the push starts at my favorite dirt track, Ascot Park. Been around the block on this, there is some delay in push starting the open wheelers, especially after a red flag. There is no denial on my end on that minor delay. It is however all good.



    Late Model Mark
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    An honest answer from a guy that knows what he'd talking about! Hat's off to ya', Mark. The best push truck organization I've seen is hand down, The Chili Bowl, but I'm sure they had to learn it from someone/someplace and Ascot may have been that place!
    Quote Originally Posted by over4T View Post
    As one of the guys in the full bodied stuff that usually plays second fiddle to the open wheel cars I've sat through enough endless sprint car mains at tracks that don't have a clue about both original starts and restarts when it comes to pushing them off.

    While we sit and swelter in line for, sometimes, nearly an hour the incompetent tracks run around in circles like the old silent movie Keystone Cops trying to clear the often upside down cars and, then, get them all pushed off and in proper order again. We swear to ourselves we will never get in that situation again..till next week. That said the tracks that get it like, as Mark said, the late lamented Ascot as well as Placerville Speedway the delays are very minor and quickly returned to racing.

    P'Ville has had a crew of Jeeps that have pushed off the Sprinters for decades and a lot of tracks around the country should send their bozos there to get some lessons in how it should be done. They get things going nearly as fast as the startered cars and it's a pleasure to watch them.

    The worst shows with Sprints to be the backup class to, hands down, is the World of Outlaws. Their officials watch the track and when it suits what they're looking for will kick the other class off and run the WoO stuff. Then we get the leftovers on a used up track and, many times, a shortened main due to time constraints. We have refused for several years to be any part of a WoO show.

    I guess the point is if the track has a clue it's all good. If not the track surely won't gain new fans with a dragged out program.
    Read this post, Raj. Over knows what he's talking about 'cause he's not only talked the talk, he's walked the walk.

    Over, you explained it much better than I even after I'd posted half of the novel War and Peace! LOL!

    What you say about Placerville being a place to learn the art of running a dirt open wheel show is exactly what I say about Emmett's crew at The Chili Bowl! Every track that wants to venture into the world of dirt open wheel racing should watch and learn at one of those two places!

    They don't throw the red every time a car gets upside down at The Chili Bowl which is a huge time saver, as well. I'm sure all of the dirt open wheel sanctions have their reasons for putting out the red for every little tommy tip-over but it can, and does, sometimes get frustrating.

    The first couple of times POWRi National Midgets raced at Fairbury, IL I talked to some of the hard core dirt late model fans who were quite impressed with the racing itself but the cluster that was the push truck brigade was a turn-off for them and I totally agreed with them. As I said earlier, Fairbury runs some of the best late model shows in the country but they just don't do enough of the open wheel stuff to get good at it. You hit it on the button, Over, the ill will that results from a less than adequate push truck and wrecker effort will run more fans off than the best racing in the world will draw.

  2. #22
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    I do love sprint cars (winged sprint cars). From a fan in the stands standpoint I also wish they had starters.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
    I do love sprint cars (winged sprint cars). From a fan in the stands standpoint I also wish they had starters.
    Let me take the liberty of suggesting that your wishes may be misplaced. Wish for better time and equipment organization by the facilities scheduling the cars without starters. Sprint cars and midgets are not really sprint cars and midgets when you hang clutch and starter systems on them. They become some sort of hybrid open wheel modified thing that is a type of half breed of sorts.

    I would also strongly suggest that you attend a top level full house wingless 410 sprint car show. The wing cars are fun to watch but the wingless cars are funner and generally more exciting!
    Last edited by CIRF; 06-24-2020 at 01:24 PM.

  4. #24
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    The starters on the open wheel cars may seem like a good idea but most of the experiments with them out west have been a failure.

    Some of the problems include that they don't use a clutch, but direct drive; ie. in/out box, and the higher powered stuff like 410 or even most of the better 360 cars have too much compression to expect to bump start them in gear and get the wheels turning. Even most of the lower H.P. cars have problems due to heat, etc. They may get them to start and pull on the track for the initial start but every time they stop most, not all, require a push.

    Another thing is weight and room to put a starter in. Sprints and midgets are more weight conscious than a Bantamweight boxer at weigh-in for a championship bout. Ounces are crucial, or are thought to be, on these cars, hence drilled bolts, titanium parts and light weight drivers for the most part. Adding a starter's weight and some sort of flywheel make these guys cringe. Add in that everything is very close fitting in them and finding room for the parts required is a problem.

    The cars are very capable of putting on terrific shows but, in my opinion, most of the lag time when they run is the tracks' incapability of knowing how to handle their unique problems. That or a full moon night when guys drive like idiots, which holds true for all classes.

  5. #25
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    Over4T. Thanks for the explanation on the mechanical side of this 👍

  6. #26
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    Over, I've spent some time reading up on how weight conscious Sammy Swindell is regarding his Chili Bowl midgets. I'm sure most of the big time teams that are very serious about winning the CB are doing all Sammy talked about, and more. I've also heard a relatively recent interview of Carl Kinser where he lightly delved into the weight reducing measures he was implementing on his WoO Sprint Cars back in his and Steve's heyday. Guys like Sammy and Carl are astonishingly thorough and remarkably creative. IIRC Carl talked about even hollowing bolt fasteners out where they could compromise strength to some degree.

  7. #27
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    CIRF, Yeah there was all kinds of craziness to get weight to a minimum such as shortening your hollowed out bolts so they would have a maximum of one thread showing past the nut, magnesium lock washers, titanium everywhere and on and on. Some very innovative stuff that borders on obsessive/compulsive behavior.
    My thought was always that instead of all the work and money to lose a few ounces to just get a skinnier driver and don't stop on the way to the track for his triple cheeseburger, extra large order of fries and a double malted. Saves money as well as time.
    Personally, I've refrained from eating much, if any, before racing for most of my years in this sport and found long ago that I drive better when I'm not stuffed...and at my age I need every edge I can get. Or maybe I just go faster so we can get out of there and hit up some late night dive for some grub and bench racing.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CIRF View Post
    Let me take the liberty of suggesting that your wishes may be misplaced. Wish for better time and equipment organization by the facilities scheduling the cars without starters. Sprint cars and midgets are not really sprint cars and midgets when you hang clutch and starter systems on them. They become some sort of hybrid open wheel modified thing that is a type of half breed of sorts.I would also strongly suggest that you attend a top level full house wingless 410 sprint car show. The wing cars are fun to watch but the wingless cars are funner and generally more exciting!
    Good advice. I will try to do that some day. 👍

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by over4T View Post
    CIRF, Yeah there was all kinds of craziness to get weight to a minimum such as shortening your hollowed out bolts so they would have a maximum of one thread showing past the nut, magnesium lock washers, titanium everywhere and on and on. Some very innovative stuff that borders on obsessive/compulsive behavior. My thought was always that instead of all the work and money to lose a few ounces to just get a skinnier driver and don't stop on the way to the track for his triple cheeseburger, extra large order of fries and a double malted. Saves money as well as time. Personally, I've refrained from eating much, if any, before racing for most of my years in this sport and found long ago that I drive better when I'm not stuffed...and at my age I need every edge I can get. Or maybe I just go faster so we can get out of there and hit up some late night dive for some grub and bench racing.
    Steve Kinser wasn’t a skinny minny? He did ok? 😜

  10. #30
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    Quite true Raj. But there's only one Steve KInser and a lot of the slightly built guys like Larson in the more modern era.

  11. #31
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    I just can’t get used to the modern era

  12. #32
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    Nor can I Raj and that goes for most all classes.

    The Sprints, of various versions, seem to be one of the worst with a lot of wealthy daddies thinking Junior is going to be the next (pick one) Larson, Swindell, Kinser, Hewitt, etc. Kids that don't even shave yet walking around in $2,000 custom fit firesuits, all buttoned up even in 100 degree heat without a smudge of dirt or grease on them as they never touch the cars. For most a few years in and not the offers from WoO, NASCAR or the Penske's of the sport they expected and daddy's 401K is broke and Junior moves on to something he's more suited for, like I Racing.

    The full bodied classes, at least on the Saturday night level may not be quite as bad as it tends to be more a family thing and, generally, the driver works his way through the lower divisions before hitting the DLMs or A Mods. They also tend to be more of a hands on thing as far as the younger drivers work on their cars.

    The simple rule I've worked with my son since he started right off with an A Mod 2 1/2 decades ago as a 16 year old was that you work on the cars or you don't race. The couple of times that he failed that rule I'd drive, he got to be the track grunt, and the point was learned very swiftly. The rule, however, is still in effect.

    The big league stuff where some of the beginners start in ARCA is best explained by Ken Schrader after a recent win in that series. " I beat one other AARP member and a bunch of high school kids."

  13. #33
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    So true over4t. I bet you are a very good dad👍. The average racer out here is busting tail at a job during the day and then building race cars and spending a lot of time and money going to race on the weekends. True good hard working folks ( then you got these rich kids rollin in full time racing with daddy’s cash). Ticks me off too.

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