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Thread: Tiregate?

  1. #21
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    All these guys better just save rubber from their tires, if they believe things are not right.
    Droop isn't the problem.

    Arizona Speedway-2. Ohio Valley-1
    East Bay-2. Lawrenceburg-2
    All-Tech-1. Florence-3
    Volusia-1. Portsmouth-3
    Jackson -5 I77 -1
    Mudlick -1
    Moler -2
    Atomic-2

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer View Post
    All these guys better just save rubber from their tires, if they believe things are not right.
    Actually, I think almost every driver is saving the tires when they get a sample taken from one now.
    If you ain't fast, you're running last!

  3. #23
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    Means nothing....the chain of custody on the tire is compromised even further at that point.

    What's stopping any driver from substituting another tire or claiming the tire was compromised some other way in the shop......saving the tire itself for a later retest or as evidence in some way would do no good, IMO.
    Last edited by Barbecueboy; 10-19-2020 at 08:30 PM.
    Where is the move over flag when you need it?????

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbecueboy View Post
    Means nothing....the chain of custody on the tire is compromised even further at that point.

    What's stopping any driver from substituting another tire or claiming the tire was compromised some other way in the shop......saving the tire itself for a later retest or as evidence in some way would do no good, IMO.
    Means nothing.......if the Purple Mafia keeps those "rocket science" benchmarks to themselves!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZERO25 View Post
    Means nothing.......if the Purple Mafia keeps those "rocket science" benchmarks to themselves!
    They are just tires. They are publicly available.
    Droop isn't the problem.

    Arizona Speedway-2. Ohio Valley-1
    East Bay-2. Lawrenceburg-2
    All-Tech-1. Florence-3
    Volusia-1. Portsmouth-3
    Jackson -5 I77 -1
    Mudlick -1
    Moler -2
    Atomic-2

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbecueboy View Post
    I've heard from some really smart people that they aren't.......not real sure what to believe anymore.
    I can tell you with 100% certainty, Blue Ridge has tested several of me and my suppliers tires, and we have NEVER been dq'ed!

    Either we're awful smart or their lab is a joke!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZERO25 View Post
    I can tell you with 100% certainty, Blue Ridge has tested several of me and my suppliers tires, and we have NEVER been dq'ed!

    Either we're awful smart or their lab is a joke!
    Or the bounds they are told to use are too loose. A lab never decides pass or fail. They do the analysis. A standard or customer instructions decides pass or fail.
    Droop isn't the problem.

    Arizona Speedway-2. Ohio Valley-1
    East Bay-2. Lawrenceburg-2
    All-Tech-1. Florence-3
    Volusia-1. Portsmouth-3
    Jackson -5 I77 -1
    Mudlick -1
    Moler -2
    Atomic-2

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer View Post
    Or the bounds they are told to use are too loose. A lab never decides pass or fail. They do the analysis. A standard or customer instructions decides pass or fail.
    Exactly, what are those tolerances and who sets them?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZERO25 View Post
    Exactly, what are those tolerances and who sets them?
    The sanction bodies are apparently not intelligent enough to explain or define test criteria. So, that becomes a good question. It's a lot like the Rumley Rules. They had no idea what it was, but the team won too much.
    Droop isn't the problem.

    Arizona Speedway-2. Ohio Valley-1
    East Bay-2. Lawrenceburg-2
    All-Tech-1. Florence-3
    Volusia-1. Portsmouth-3
    Jackson -5 I77 -1
    Mudlick -1
    Moler -2
    Atomic-2

  10. #30
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    I'm fairly certain a tire changes some with age. Mechanical property changes alone prove that. That alone makes the bounds have to be wide to account for aging. That would then leave room to add chemical back that is already in the tire. Test criteria is left hidden because of this reason, or it's lack of understanding of what constitutes a fair test protocol.
    Droop isn't the problem.

    Arizona Speedway-2. Ohio Valley-1
    East Bay-2. Lawrenceburg-2
    All-Tech-1. Florence-3
    Volusia-1. Portsmouth-3
    Jackson -5 I77 -1
    Mudlick -1
    Moler -2
    Atomic-2

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer View Post
    The sanction bodies are apparently not intelligent enough to explain or define test criteria. So, that becomes a good question. It's a lot like the Rumley Rules. They had no idea what it was, but the team won too much.
    Yep......a little openness and honesty from the sanction bodies and Hoosier would go a long way in this tire testing fiasco!

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZERO25 View Post
    Yep......a little openness and honesty from the sanction bodies and Hoosier would go a long way in this tire testing fiasco!
    Honestly, I'm not sure Hoosier owes anyone anything. And I'm not a fan of their tactics. They should give guidance to the sanctions about batch tolerances, but it's up to the jury to tell us what they call a fail.
    Droop isn't the problem.

    Arizona Speedway-2. Ohio Valley-1
    East Bay-2. Lawrenceburg-2
    All-Tech-1. Florence-3
    Volusia-1. Portsmouth-3
    Jackson -5 I77 -1
    Mudlick -1
    Moler -2
    Atomic-2

  13. #33
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    I can 100% tell you that if it doesn't appear as the benchmark then it doesn't meet the benchmark and is called such. There are not "tolerances" set as you guys seem to suggest. It either conforms to the benchmark or it doesn't. They don't say it has 100 ppm of sea salt in it. They say it does not conform to the benchmark provided by the manufacturer. Blue Ridge has been testing racing tires and fuel for many years. Those that question them may not understand how science works or need someone to blame. Blue Ridge is bonded and licensed with over 25 years in the business. They have ZERO reason to screw anyone. The sanctions have ZERO reason to screw anyone. It pisses me off that anyone tries to point it at sanctions. I have a VERY specific process to collect samples. It is akin to a forensic process that maintains a chain of custody. The process for my events is: Tire is marked at scale. Official follows competitor to their hauler. Official instructs crew member which tire to use. Official collects date code and affixes this to the evidence bag along with the compound of the tire and sample name. The official then opens a new glass vial. The official instructs the crew member, using his own grooving iron, to remove a sample from the outer tread block of the tire and then rotate 1/3 of a turn. Then remove a sample from the middle of the tire and rotate another 1/3 of a turn and remove a sample from the inside of the tire. Each sample is placed by the crew member into the open vial that the official is holding as it is removed. Once all samples are in the vial the top is screwed on and then it is sealed with a decal. The vial is then placed inside of the evidence bag and it is sealed. The crew member then signs on the bag along with the official agreeing it is sealed. The team is given a "receipt tab" which is attached to the bag. It has the unique number of the bag on it. When the sample arrives Blue Ridge confirms integrity of the bag and the sample as unopened and intact. Sample is then run. At no point does any official even touch the samples. So I have no idea how anyone can question the integrity of the sample. It is sealed in a tamperproof evidence bag inside a glass vial. It is no secret and I don't mind sharing it. People want transparency but when you give it to them they don't believe it.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by flagone View Post
    I can 100% tell you that if it doesn't appear as the benchmark then it doesn't meet the benchmark and is called such. There are not "tolerances" set as you guys seem to suggest. It either conforms to the benchmark or it doesn't. They don't say it has 100 ppm of sea salt in it. They say it does not conform to the benchmark provided by the manufacturer. Blue Ridge has been testing racing tires and fuel for many years. Those that question them may not understand how science works or need someone to blame. Blue Ridge is bonded and licensed with over 25 years in the business. They have ZERO reason to screw anyone. The sanctions have ZERO reason to screw anyone. It pisses me off that anyone tries to point it at sanctions. I have a VERY specific process to collect samples. It is akin to a forensic process that maintains a chain of custody. The process for my events is: Tire is marked at scale. Official follows competitor to their hauler. Official instructs crew member which tire to use. Official collects date code and affixes this to the evidence bag along with the compound of the tire and sample name. The official then opens a new glass vial. The official instructs the crew member, using his own grooving iron, to remove a sample from the outer tread block of the tire and then rotate 1/3 of a turn. Then remove a sample from the middle of the tire and rotate another 1/3 of a turn and remove a sample from the inside of the tire. Each sample is placed by the crew member into the open vial that the official is holding as it is removed. Once all samples are in the vial the top is screwed on and then it is sealed with a decal. The vial is then placed inside of the evidence bag and it is sealed. The crew member then signs on the bag along with the official agreeing it is sealed. The team is given a "receipt tab" which is attached to the bag. It has the unique number of the bag on it. When the sample arrives Blue Ridge confirms integrity of the bag and the sample as unopened and intact. Sample is then run. At no point does any official even touch the samples. So I have no idea how anyone can question the integrity of the sample. It is sealed in a tamperproof evidence bag inside a glass vial. It is no secret and I don't mind sharing it. People want transparency but when you give it to them they don't believe it.
    You missed the part where their past results have shown that 62-76% of the original ingredients of the tire don't exist anymore? How would that tire even be useable if that's the case? It was mentioned that Blue Ridge doesnt make the call. That is correct. The call is made by the sanctioning body. But it was also mentioned that the benchmarks they go by are not made public. I will tell you why they are not public. I had already mentioned that there is always a 40% chance that the benchmark may have never been right when the tire was created. The benchmarks should change each time there is a brand new batch of tires made; but that does not happen. So there is the opportunity for the original benchmark to get way out of whack before it reels itself back in to the guidelines the company says they follow when manufacturing these tires. Like I stated before if blue ridge looks bad it's only because what they have to work with is already flawed. I'm gonna fry for this but Hoosier knows why this happens and they dont care. They hold a monopoly on the market and they know it. Nobody will challenge them because Hoosier would stop putting in all that sponsorship money. Have you noticed in the last 2 years in just dirt late model racing alone, how many races have had dozens of cars with tire issues? Straight from 2 prominent Hoosier dealers ... "Trust us. They have changed the way they make these tires. And it's not for the better either. It's all about the money!"
    If you ain't fast, you're running last!

  15. #35
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    So where's the secured back up sample to verify the validity of the original secured sample?
    I perform drug and alcohol testing on a regular basis and there are always two samples sent to the lab when my original sample from a test subject came up non-negative from my onsite test
    This tire testing deal will eventually blow up in the labs and sanctions faces when someone with a pocket full of money takes them to task and starts a civil action against them.
    Why do they refuse to publish the list of "chemicals" being found that don't conform to the "benchmark".
    Not a (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) thing proprietary to those....

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by flagone View Post
    I can 100% tell you that if it doesn't appear as the benchmark then it doesn't meet the benchmark and is called such. There are not "tolerances" set as you guys seem to suggest. It either conforms to the benchmark or it doesn't. They don't say it has 100 ppm of sea salt in it. They say it does not conform to the benchmark provided by the manufacturer. Blue Ridge has been testing racing tires and fuel for many years. Those that question them may not understand how science works or need someone to blame. Blue Ridge is bonded and licensed with over 25 years in the business. They have ZERO reason to screw anyone. The sanctions have ZERO reason to screw anyone. It pisses me off that anyone tries to point it at sanctions. I have a VERY specific process to collect samples. It is akin to a forensic process that maintains a chain of custody. The process for my events is: Tire is marked at scale. Official follows competitor to their hauler. Official instructs crew member which tire to use. Official collects date code and affixes this to the evidence bag along with the compound of the tire and sample name. The official then opens a new glass vial. The official instructs the crew member, using his own grooving iron, to remove a sample from the outer tread block of the tire and then rotate 1/3 of a turn. Then remove a sample from the middle of the tire and rotate another 1/3 of a turn and remove a sample from the inside of the tire. Each sample is placed by the crew member into the open vial that the official is holding as it is removed. Once all samples are in the vial the top is screwed on and then it is sealed with a decal. The vial is then placed inside of the evidence bag and it is sealed. The crew member then signs on the bag along with the official agreeing it is sealed. The team is given a "receipt tab" which is attached to the bag. It has the unique number of the bag on it. When the sample arrives Blue Ridge confirms integrity of the bag and the sample as unopened and intact. Sample is then run. At no point does any official even touch the samples. So I have no idea how anyone can question the integrity of the sample. It is sealed in a tamperproof evidence bag inside a glass vial. It is no secret and I don't mind sharing it. People want transparency but when you give it to them they don't believe it.
    My question on the chain of custody and benchmarks come before you guys even see the tire.
    Where is the move over flag when you need it?????

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClampedUp View Post
    So where's the secured back up sample to verify the validity of the original secured sample?
    I perform drug and alcohol testing on a regular basis and there are always two samples sent to the lab when my original sample from a test subject came up non-negative from my onsite test
    This tire testing deal will eventually blow up in the labs and sanctions faces when someone with a pocket full of money takes them to task and starts a civil action against them.
    Why do they refuse to publish the list of "chemicals" being found that don't conform to the "benchmark".
    Not a (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) thing proprietary to those....
    I've always heard they won't release what they found because it gives the juice makers better data to produce better juice........talk about conspiracy theories.
    Where is the move over flag when you need it?????

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbecueboy View Post
    I've always heard they won't release what they found because it gives the juice makers better data to produce better juice........talk about conspiracy theories.
    LOL Well you definitely have the number one reason why they don't release the data. Number 2 is because they know that the tests are not accurate due to a few reasons, and three, people would really point the finger at Hoosier if they had ALL the info, and the sanctioning bodies won't let that happen.
    If you ain't fast, you're running last!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by flagone View Post
    I can 100% tell you that if it doesn't appear as the benchmark then it doesn't meet the benchmark and is called such. There are not "tolerances" set as you guys seem to suggest. It either conforms to the benchmark or it doesn't. They don't say it has 100 ppm of sea salt in it. They say it does not conform to the benchmark provided by the manufacturer. Blue Ridge has been testing racing tires and fuel for many years. Those that question them may not understand how science works or need someone to blame. Blue Ridge is bonded and licensed with over 25 years in the business. They have ZERO reason to screw anyone. The sanctions have ZERO reason to screw anyone. It pisses me off that anyone tries to point it at sanctions. I have a VERY specific process to collect samples. It is akin to a forensic process that maintains a chain of custody. The process for my events is: Tire is marked at scale. Official follows competitor to their hauler. Official instructs crew member which tire to use. Official collects date code and affixes this to the evidence bag along with the compound of the tire and sample name. The official then opens a new glass vial. The official instructs the crew member, using his own grooving iron, to remove a sample from the outer tread block of the tire and then rotate 1/3 of a turn. Then remove a sample from the middle of the tire and rotate another 1/3 of a turn and remove a sample from the inside of the tire. Each sample is placed by the crew member into the open vial that the official is holding as it is removed. Once all samples are in the vial the top is screwed on and then it is sealed with a decal. The vial is then placed inside of the evidence bag and it is sealed. The crew member then signs on the bag along with the official agreeing it is sealed. The team is given a "receipt tab" which is attached to the bag. It has the unique number of the bag on it. When the sample arrives Blue Ridge confirms integrity of the bag and the sample as unopened and intact. Sample is then run. At no point does any official even touch the samples. So I have no idea how anyone can question the integrity of the sample. It is sealed in a tamperproof evidence bag inside a glass vial. It is no secret and I don't mind sharing it. People want transparency but when you give it to them they don't believe it.
    Someone, somewhere, some time, gave the lab criteria for what does or doesn't meet the benchmark. No lab I have ever been involved in, does the testing and sets the pass/fail criteria. Testing has been most of my life.
    Droop isn't the problem.

    Arizona Speedway-2. Ohio Valley-1
    East Bay-2. Lawrenceburg-2
    All-Tech-1. Florence-3
    Volusia-1. Portsmouth-3
    Jackson -5 I77 -1
    Mudlick -1
    Moler -2
    Atomic-2

  20. #40
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    depending on who's cooking the soup.......as much as consistency is always the goal in anything produced for consumer use, it doesn't always happen.....for many reasons.

    All of this circles back to the folks making the tires.....no hiding from that.

    So to prevent all this soaking ,tell me again why they can't just make a tire that all of these supposed cheaters want to run consistently? They are the biggest and baddest dirt tire producer on the planet, surely they have scientists that can figure it out?

    Or do the bookkeepers not want them too?
    Where is the move over flag when you need it?????

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