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  1. #21
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by slmcrewchief99 View Post
    To say to Masters that he need to step outside the box is nearly as funny as saying Biden is an amazing President. Between Masters and Billet, those 2 guys have done more outside the box than probably everyone else on here combined. I've been turning wrenches, beating out body panels, and moving lead since the start of 4 bar cars. We all do wayyyyyy more things than you would think and 99% of it we won't dare talk about. We constantly are thinking and working outside the box.That's how teams get an edge. Finding a tenth or 2 of speed is tough. I'm most likely not sharing it on here when we find something either. That's just how it is.
    Move lead, what lead? Hell 90% of us are trying to get weight off the cars, they become so heavy getting to minimum weight is harder then it should be. Carbon fiber seats and anything we can do out of it, 9# batteries, etc.

    Not saying we don't alter weights but actual lead is becoming a luxury anymore, unless you got a 150# driver or a throw away car. I still remember the 2100# cars, that was rough.

    Frames have went from 275# bare to about 325+#, then add in fire system, full containment seats, safety fuel cells (some of them are heavy as hell), stiffer bodies, etc. it all adds up
    Last edited by billetbirdcage; 01-12-2022 at 06:41 PM.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Sheridan Ar
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    727

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    With the new cars for the last few years you are right Bullitt. We have a 10# weight we move around but that's it.

  3. #23
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    May 2007
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    tulsa america
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    Quote Originally Posted by billetbirdcage View Post
    Move lead, what lead? Hell 90% of us are trying to get weight off the cars, they become so heavy getting to minimum weight is harder then it should be. Carbon fiber seats and anything we can do out of it, 9# batteries, etc.

    Not saying we don't alter weights but actual lead is becoming a luxury anymore, unless you got a 150# driver or a throw away car. I still remember the 2100# cars, that was rough.

    Frames have went from 275# bare to about 325+#, then add in fire system, full containment seats, safety fuel cells (some of them are heavy as hell), stiffer bodies, etc. it all adds up
    need more ti bolts and carbon fiber like them push'em flippem guys

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    176

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    There is some interesting info in this thread. I had no idea that scales were becoming a thing of the past.

  5. #25
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    Aug 2012
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    What is it about the newer chassis that make them so much heavier? I thought the chrome moly tubing was supposedly lighter than the good old DOM that was being used. Are they putting that many extra bars in the new cars? Like Billet I also remember our 2000 GRT with all aluminium engine on dry sump race ready was 1950# without the 195# driver and that car had a gen 1 bert and standard weight quick change in it. So it could have been even lighter. We still use our scales a couple times a year just to recheck %'s or if we hit on something that works we might see what the numbers look like

  6. #26
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    May 2007
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    Kansas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mopar DLM View Post
    What is it about the newer chassis that make them so much heavier? I thought the chrome moly tubing was supposedly lighter than the good old DOM that was being used. Are they putting that many extra bars in the new cars? Like Billet I also remember our 2000 GRT with all aluminium engine on dry sump race ready was 1950# without the 195# driver and that car had a gen 1 bert and standard weight quick change in it. So it could have been even lighter. We still use our scales a couple times a year just to recheck %'s or if we hit on something that works we might see what the numbers look like
    DOM, moly, Docol all weight the same, you can just use thinner wall tubing for a weight savings and still be the same strength. Take a GRT over rail style car from say 2008 and make it out of DOM mostly .083 and it weights about 325# minimum with no bumpers vs same car made of .065 moly and it's about 275# minimum. IIRC just making the 1.75 main frame rails out of .095 vs .083 was either 9# or 12#, just for those 2 pieces of tubing.

    The newer cars aren't so much made of heavier or thicker tubing, there is just a lot more tubing in the cars. You add several pounds just on the undersling on the back and then add in all the extra bracing to stiffen the cars and you've added a fair amount of weight to the car.

    Then add on the extra bolt on stuff required like the fire system adds 15 to 20#, then seats weight more as do the fuel cells and other components we made heavier for a reason whether it be strength or whatever it all adds up. Little things add up, take the noses they have more pieces to them and more valances and are mounted better to survive hitting the ground so add a few more pounds there, lol. Cars are about 75# heavier then they were 7/8 years ago.

    Motors are also heavier then in the past. Larger motors means heavier cranks and more RPM means heavier rods and components. I know our latest motors are least 20# heavier then one say 10 years ago (all aluminum motors)
    Last edited by billetbirdcage; 01-13-2022 at 10:50 AM.

  7. #27
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    Kansas
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    I Forgot the lower control arms. Years past the RF lower was made of maybe 1.25 x .065 or .083 tubing. Try that now with a bumpstop and it will fold like a pancake. Most are in the .156 wall range now, so you doubled to tripled that wieght on just that one component.

  8. #28
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    May 2007
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    Batavia, OH
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    13,615

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    To add to Billets points, when you go with the stronger tubing and reduce thickness, you can have the same or higher strength, but you have decreased stiffness of the car as all those steels have the same spring rate. People don't understand that either, many times. A car with .095 Dom main rail and a car with .083 moly main rail will not perform the same. The first one is stiffer, the second one is stronger in a crash.
    Modern Day Wedge Racing
    Florence -1

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    One thing i love the most from the older DOM stuff was the stiffness. That old square tube frame rail GRT always measured the same year after year. It was very consistent and adjustments were repeatable. (meaning two rounds back then had the same effect every time) Some of the cars now when you jack it up you can watch the hood pins flex and move before the car ever starts to raise up. I can only imagine what the rails do at mid turn.

  10. #30
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    Oct 2007
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    Are you guys saying that an older chassis with todays new shocks and springs would flex out those cars in 2 nights of racing?
    Last edited by Car Biz; 01-14-2022 at 08:50 AM.

  11. #31
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    Jan 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Car Biz View Post
    Are you guys saying that an older chassis with todays new shocks and springs would flex out those cars in 2 nights of racing?
    Depends on the chassis. Cars were built so soft at one point you would literally need to replace the interior sheet metal rivets every few weeks...

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    152

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvelB7 View Post
    Depends on the chassis. Cars were built so soft at one point you would literally need to replace the interior sheet metal rivets every few weeks...
    I do remember ours cars being "flexed out" at about 40 nights in the late 90's

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