Are the Super's too expensive?

[oilman]

Anyone with any kind of experience with super or crate LM, modifieds, northeast modifieds or street stocks will tell you, yes, it absolutely IS the bodies.
As far as car counts, especially as far as Williams Grove is concerned, the other 500 pound gorilla in the room that nobody wants to talk about is that 1/2 -5/8 mile tracks are outdated and not sustainable for racing at this time. They were ok in 1978, but not now. The expenses involved are too high.

[play4kps]

The real thing nobody wants to talk about is the corporate sponsors of the 2 big series, dirt on dirt and several big name tracks. A lot of drivers in those series are comped those items to help them win, sounds harmless enough. But that's where the problems comes in, Joe local now has to buy these expensive items if he wants to compete with the other cars. Its really simple. everyone wants big media coverage, big traveling series. Sadly that has been the demise of our great sport.

[Josh Bayko]

Williams Grove has never done particularly well for car counts when they’ve had super lates. They’d get 20ish back before crate late models were even a thing.

[fastford]

The real thing nobody wants to talk about is the corporate sponsors of the 2 big series, dirt on dirt and several big name tracks. A lot of drivers in those series are comped those items to help them win, sounds harmless enough. But that's where the problems comes in, Joe local now has to buy these expensive items if he wants to compete with the other cars. Its really simple. everyone wants big media coverage, big traveling series. Sadly that has been the demise of our great sport.

you are exactly correct , that's really the problem in a nut shell

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The real thing nobody wants to talk about is the corporate sponsors of the 2 big series, dirt on dirt and several big name tracks. A lot of drivers in those series are comped those items to help them win, sounds harmless enough. But that's where the problems comes in, Joe local now has to buy these expensive items if he wants to compete with the other cars. Its really simple. everyone wants big media coverage, big traveling series. Sadly that has been the demise of our great sport.

I don't care what anyone spends on the class. I only care what it costs me to be competitive. If the car can only hook 700 hp, that's all I'm gonna buy. It served me well for decades, until the bodies got too big and my driver's racing flat footed like he's driving a crate.

It's too easy to say we got out spent. I'm way more analytical than that. We run the same lap times all night while the others drop a second. We go from a second slow to on point. Tony Stewart didn't do that. Series officials asleep at the wheel did.

[racerx99]

Like I said awhile back on this thread....IM no racer or engineer...but is so friggin obvious that, take away the down-force the body has, because mechanically you only get so much power to ground with the weight and down-force....I think the cars today are awesome in their own way...but watching them at Bristol this past weekend showed how these cars cant race around each, there is so much 'dirty' air around them.........what, you think that was 'crate' racin in 2008...My opinion UMP needs to go back to the 2008 bodies and let the rest of these 'super series' do their thing....THE LITTLE GUY can't compete with these guys anymore........Ben to alotta tracks in my days....sad the one of my favorites, can't grab enough supers every week to race....just sayin thought when steve francis became part off lucas some things might change in that respect....just sayin....GO BRANDON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[play4kps]

Parity, that is what grew this great sport, 60 different cars had a shot to win the world 100! Today you 8-10 different drivers at best. The sport has become all about the car on the bigger tracks.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Anyone see McCreadie comments from this weekend? He isn't a fan of the droop rule because his spoiler isn't higher than the other guys now. Now he can't pass either. The maddening thing is he's not upset that dirty air is a thing at all. He's only focused on himself, not the sport.

[fastford]

Anyone see McCreadie comments from this weekend? He isn't a fan of the droop rule because his spoiler isn't higher than the other guys now. Now he can't pass either. The maddening thing is he's not upset that dirty air is a thing at all. He's only focused on himself, not the sport.

Is not every one that way ? you and I can build a lot of our stuff , the ones that cant and cant afford to buy it will not be competitive , the ones with the cash can go and buy it , and now days , a lot of times they can buy cutting edge technology that will out perform a lot of our home made parts , but you all keep thinking the body is the answer , and like I have said , I wish you were right , but I will have to see it to believe it .....JMO...

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Is not every one that way ? you and I can build a lot of our stuff , the ones that cant and cant afford to buy it will not be competitive , the ones with the cash can go and buy it , and now days , a lot of times they can buy cutting edge technology that will out perform a lot of our home made parts , but you all keep thinking the body is the answer , and like I have said , I wish you were right , but I will have to see it to believe it .....JMO...

I guarantee you that less downforce means less engine required. Will that save everyone money? Of course not, because people will waste it anyway.

In the end, I don't care who's winning, I want the cars to be able to race each other again. Yes, the bodies prevent that. McCreadie is even telling you that, but he doesn't care if he can get his spoiler up to have an advantage.

The product on the track should be something we can all get behind improving. Max downforce racing is train racing.

[GEAR_HEAD]

Anyone see McCreadie comments from this weekend? He isn't a fan of the droop rule because his spoiler isn't higher than the other guys now. Now he can't pass either. The maddening thing is he's not upset that dirty air is a thing at all. He's only focused on himself, not the sport.

McCreadie has become a bigger whiner than the Moyers and Madden combined. Everything that comes out of mouth now is a complaint. He races for a living...his life can't be that terrible.

[Pennsboro32]

People will say they don't watch pro sports because there's too many cry babies. We have just as many in DLM racing.

[Hoosier_Dirt]

McCreadie has become a bigger whiner than the Moyers and Madden combined. Everything that comes out of mouth now is a complaint. He races for a living...his life can't be that terrible.

Yes he has, I've noticed that the last couple years.

[klemmabyna]

i guess i don't mind hearing what drivers have to say. Beats listening to nothing but sponsor shoutouts.

As far as tmac commenting from his perspective, i consider it just what it is: his opinion based on the current rules he is running.

would it be nice to hear from a touring driver that the bodies, especially on the big tracks, have taken away driver skill as the most important factor on the track? sure would. then we could argue that the driver just isn't talented. i don't think that is the case here.

original topic: i don't think they have become to expensive to for selected race teams. they have become too expensive for weekly tracks and weekly racers. even regional/national toring series car counts are down because of the costs. the worst part about that is the number of local racers that used to show up to support big events at their local track, not to win, but just to compete, has taken a big hit. call them field fillers if you like, but these are the racers that that put fans in the stands and allow local tracks to host big events.

last call: how many competitive late model racers have hung up their helmet or gone to crates and modifieds the past several years? sugar daddy sponsors don't grow on trees. affording to run your own late model team isn't easy.

JMO from a fan in the stands.

[billetbirdcage]

would it be nice to hear from a touring driver that the bodies, especially on the big tracks, have taken away driver skill as the most important factor on the track? sure would. then we could argue that the driver just isn't talented. i don't think that is the case here.

klemmabyna: I'm not real good with names anymore but I think I remember you going to alot of races in the area that Al Purkey would have raced with MLRA, MARS, TORA, WDRL, and ETC. I just had a conversation with him 4 days ago about that very thing. Al for the most part quit racing in 2011ish and a couple years ago, he drove a used 2016 car for a couple races. He said and I'll quote the best I remember "The traction these cars produce now is amazing and it takes a lot of the driver out of the car." He went on to say the aero and soft tires are requiring so much motor when your qualifying that is requiring a huge expense on not just the cost of the engine but the cost to rebuild them when they don't break but get lapped out.

I wasn't real sure if you mean you would like a current driver to admit this or was wondering how true the aero stuff really is.

[Raceready]

McCreadie has become a bigger whiner than the Moyers and Madden combined. Everything that comes out of mouth now is a complaint. He races for a living...his life can't be that terrible.

I'll be willing to bet that Ritchie will beg to differ that ? ?

[fastford]

I,m not disagreeing that the body deal wouldn't help , but I just dont think it will do it alone like some insinuate , mainly because the minute you initiate that rule , smart people will be looking for and finding something new , which is the way IMO it should be , but to the majority it will add expense , but if you keep stifling every new thing that helps , ie: rumly device , then you have another spec class , maybe a track some where will try changing just the body rules back to the mid 2000,s rules and leave every thing else alone and see what happens in a season , unless some one does this , we will never know the effects , .....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I,m not disagreeing that the body deal wouldn't help , but I just dont think it will do it alone like some insinuate , mainly because the minute you initiate that rule , smart people will be looking for and finding something new , which is the way IMO it should be , but to the majority it will add expense , but if you keep stifling every new thing that helps , ie: rumly device , then you have another spec class , maybe a track some where will try changing just the body rules back to the mid 2000,s rules and leave every thing else alone and see what happens in a season , unless some one does this , we will never know the effects , .....

Body rules will get fixed at some point or the class is dead. They will be fixed. Wedge cars were eliminated for the betterment of the sport. We now have the same car. The center of the car is exactly the same. The deck is in the same place dynamically on the track. The left side board is the left door and interior. Hell, the nose is probably better than those simple wedges.

I'm not asking to eliminate Rumley devices or anything else. It should still be legal, IMO. So should spring bars, brake floaters and any other thing we ran 25 to 30 years ago. If you are worried about SPEC, you are late to the party. It became a SPEC class in 2016. The rules makers now decide you are illegal,even if you fit the rules, based on "if what you have is better and not for sale, it isn't fair".

[ALLDIRT]

Late models are NOT to expensive because of the body. My god people.

Although body's do cost more . Everything made for these cars have skyrocketed . The
traveling series has been the biggest reason for high cost . For any local to even try and
compete has no chance to even make the race . The local hero's is in the past . And now
the fans have been treated to high dollar traveling series races . Now more than ever , fans
only come out to see just that . HOOSIER their selves have the price of a single tire $ 275.00
It now cost the average racer $ 1200.00 , plus high dollar fuel just to start the race . That does
not even mention the cost for the truck and crew to get there , and pay their way in . And there
is no relief in sight . Late model racing in in serious trouble . And suppliers are pricing their selves
right out of business .

[klemmabyna]

billetbirdcage

saw al race a bunch back home. including a couple head knocking brawls with steve kosisiki. and al was never a field filler when he came through the gate.

definately agree the horsepower makes hooking up the tires extremely difficult. that part of the equation doesn't bother me as a fan in the stands. the throttle control of the racer behind the wheel is what excites me.

but i don't have to pay for motors. and that cost has to be a huge reason we don't have race teams like purkey anymore.

the problem i have with the aero created by today's bodies is that we see a racer chase a guy down, get behind him, then lose the traction that allowed him to get there because of the airflow from the car in front. then a parade to the finish because at this level most guys at the front don't make mistakes.

i don't want spec engines and tires at the top level. i just don't understand how the current body style benefits anyone except the guys running the wind tunnel testing.

jmo.