Ultimate Series tire test rules. All series should try this. Let them prove Innocence

[HoosierDirtFan]

Ultimate Series tire test rules. All series should try this. Let them prove Innocence.

I like this idea.

Copied and pasted from the Ultimate Series Facebook page.

Ultimate Super Late Model Series
9h ·

As announced in the drivers meeting at Cherokee Saturday we have amended our tire sampling and testing process:

Tire Samples and Lab Testing Process

Collection and Analysis Process

- Tire is marked for sample by official

- Official confirms the marked tire upon notifying team of sampling

- Team member removes tire from car then utilizes team equipment to remove samples as per instructions:

- Approximate 1-inch sample removed from outside block of tread. Tire is rotated 1/3 and approximate 1-inch sample removed from center block of tread. Tire is then rotated another 1/3 and an approximate 1-inch sample is removed from inside tread.

- As samples are removed the team member places them inside the open vial that the official is holding. When all 3 samples are inside the vial, the crew member screws lid onto vial. Seal tape is applied to vial and initialed by team member and official.

- Sealed vial is then placed inside of evidence bag. Bag is sealed and information about tire is written on the bag to include: Date code, tire compound, date of event, driver last name and car number.

- Bag is then signed by crew member and official confirming accuracy of information and that the bag is sealed and intact.

- Process is repeated for total of 2 sealed bag samples (A and B).

- Sample A is sent to Primary Testing Lab for analysis. Primary Lab confirms receiving sample sealed and in good order.

- Sample B is retained by Series for additional testing if warranted.

- If Sample A is deemed to be altered the Series will send Sample B to Alternate Lab for analysis. Alternate Lab confirms receiving sample sealed and in good order.

- If Sample B is also found to be altered the Series will enforce penalties as noted to include costs of analysis of both Sample A and Sample B.

This will now mean a tire will be tested 3 times by 2 different laboratories before it is deemed altered.

[Oiler]

If Ultimate is still using Blue Ridge these days, that second sample will come into play more than they think. They've DQ'd a few over the years using the old 'single sample in a plastic dime bag' method with no retesting.

[Henry Every]

Wouldn't open tire be simpler, instead of all this legal machinations and lab expenses. Cut, sipe, needle, on whatever compound or brand the racer thinks is best for them. All this drama needlessly complicates and in some cases tarnishes reputations and in the age of social media you can be tarred and feathered before you reach the house. I'll always be an "Open" tire advocate, open meaning any compound or brand available on the market, not the tiny basket you choose for me.

[Barbecueboy]

You spelled “Tire rule,lol” wrong Henry……..but I agree with everything you said.

[flagone]

In 11 years of lab testing with Blue Ridge I have had exactly one tire come back altered. And it was retested by Blue Ridge as they retest every one that comes back wrong. There is nothing wrong with Blue Ridge or their process. They have been in this business for over 30 years and have tested for the EPA, multiple state agencies and multiple racing organizations. They utilize QC checks and balances daily that other labs do not use. They also recently invested in the latest mass spec technology available. The only reason that I added this secondary testing is to shut naysayers up about testing. It is benchmark testing. It is so cut and dry.

Henry every ask any dirt late model team that has raced for any amount of time and I assure you that 98% will quickly tell you they have no desire to have an open tire rule. And the other 2% never had to pay the bills or keep and haul the inventory so they don't know any better. We had open tire rules in the 90s and early 2000s. The purpose of the National Late Model Tire rule was to reduce the amount of tires teams had to carry / have to compete. Hoosier had about 17 part numbers for DLMs. AR had probably 10 or 12. So now Hoosier is down to 4 but 1 of them was introduced to compete with open ARs in the NE.

It is a never ending cycle. If AR would just have the same compounds as Hoosier we could keep the part numbers down. But because many have opened up and allow both brands with the current compounds Hoosier has introduced a tire that will be competitive with the AR compound that is out. Believe what you want, yes AR is cheaper right now, but neither one's priority is saving the racer money. They are both businesses and are going to look out for their bottom line before anything else.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

In 11 years of lab testing with Blue Ridge I have had exactly one tire come back altered. And it was retested by Blue Ridge as they retest every one that comes back wrong. There is nothing wrong with Blue Ridge or their process. They have been in this business for over 30 years and have tested for the EPA, multiple state agencies and multiple racing organizations. They utilize QC checks and balances daily that other labs do not use. They also recently invested in the latest mass spec technology available. The only reason that I added this secondary testing is to shut naysayers up about testing. It is benchmark testing. It is so cut and dry.

Henry every ask any dirt late model team that has raced for any amount of time and I assure you that 98% will quickly tell you they have no desire to have an open tire rule. And the other 2% never had to pay the bills or keep and haul the inventory so they don't know any better. We had open tire rules in the 90s and early 2000s. The purpose of the National Late Model Tire rule was to reduce the amount of tires teams had to carry / have to compete. Hoosier had about 17 part numbers for DLMs. AR had probably 10 or 12. So now Hoosier is down to 4 but 1 of them was introduced to compete with open ARs in the NE.

It is a never ending cycle. If AR would just have the same compounds as Hoosier we could keep the part numbers down. But because many have opened up and allow both brands with the current compounds Hoosier has introduced a tire that will be competitive with the AR compound that is out. Believe what you want, yes AR is cheaper right now, but neither one's priority is saving the racer money. They are both businesses and are going to look out for their bottom line before anything else.

"If AR would just do what Hoosier does". Those words say a lot about who is in charge.

The multitude of compounds is only an issue for the travelling racers. Those are the guys who get the deals anyway. Guys who stay in a region are only going to use a handful of the options because that is all they need.

[flagone]

WRONG

My racers didn't want the NLMT 2. They wanted 2 compounds PERIOD. If I allow the AR compounds that others are allowing I would then have 5 different compounds and they are all different. That was my point. I don't give a S H 1 T which company does what to make them all the same. However Hoosier is the first to reduce the number of compounds and they are also what is used by the National tours. It is common sense.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Blah, Blah, Blah. This hole deal stinks, if your cutting samples in the 3 spots on 1 rotation and someone does dope a tire those tests should be the same across each lab. Yes, you have to have a small +/- . Someone posted on Facebook that he has had a American Racer on the right front t for I believe he said 130+ laps and the tire did still look like it could go another 130 easily. Hoosier, why can't you produce a tire that will last. Oh wait, I know, your ripping off everybody.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

WRONG

My racers didn't want the NLMT 2. They wanted 2 compounds PERIOD. If I allow the AR compounds that others are allowing I would then have 5 different compounds and they are all different. That was my point. I don't give a S H 1 T which company does what to make them all the same. However Hoosier is the first to reduce the number of compounds and they are also what is used by the National tours. It is common sense.

NO ONE will take 5 to a track. I lived successfully thru the 17 option days. I could race in a 300 mile radius with 4.

[ZERO25]

In 11 years of lab testing with Blue Ridge I have had exactly one tire come back altered. And it was retested by Blue Ridge as they retest every one that comes back wrong. There is nothing wrong with Blue Ridge or their process. They have been in this business for over 30 years and have tested for the EPA, multiple state agencies and multiple racing organizations. They utilize QC checks and balances daily that other labs do not use. They also recently invested in the latest mass spec technology available. The only reason that I added this secondary testing is to shut naysayers up about testing. It is benchmark testing. It is so cut and dry.

Henry every ask any dirt late model team that has raced for any amount of time and I assure you that 98% will quickly tell you they have no desire to have an open tire rule. And the other 2% never had to pay the bills or keep and haul the inventory so they don't know any better. We had open tire rules in the 90s and early 2000s. The purpose of the National Late Model Tire rule was to reduce the amount of tires teams had to carry / have to compete. Hoosier had about 17 part numbers for DLMs. AR had probably 10 or 12. So now Hoosier is down to 4 but 1 of them was introduced to compete with open ARs in the NE.

It is a never ending cycle. If AR would just have the same compounds as Hoosier we could keep the part numbers down. But because many have opened up and allow both brands with the current compounds Hoosier has introduced a tire that will be competitive with the AR compound that is out. Believe what you want, yes AR is cheaper right now, but neither one's priority is saving the racer money. They are both businesses and are going to look out for their bottom line before anything else.

One word Kelly........TRANSPARENCY!

No series or even Hoosier are not transparent about these so called "benchmarks"! They seemed to be some hidden top secret components that these Purple Mafia tires are made from! Thats the weak link in this tire testing!

Be transparent........show us where the tire tests failed!

We do not trust Hoosier and their benchmarks.......Im pretty sure I speak for a lot of folks!

[LM1]

Kelly - do you ever see a day where AR gets more universally used by other series? I hear you about each company trying to make profits but if the tire is cheaper and lasts longer that's better for the racer.

[flagone]

What exactly does Hoosier have to gain by having a bad benchmark exactly? Explain how that helps them in any possible way. It doesn't help them sell tires. It doesn't gain them any PR. It just makes no sense.

A benchmark is simply a sample of the same batch/date code. Every time there is a different date code produced Hoosier provides a benchmark sample for it. Then all tires from that date code are compared to that benchmark when they are lab tested.

When you say transparency let me ask you this. Do you eat Kentucky Fried Chicken? Do you know the recipe? No because it's proprietary. No company is going to give away the formulas for making any consumable. The whole Hoosier conspiracy makes no sense. BTW AR provides the same benchmarks for their date codes as well. And the reason they don't give more information is because the backyard chemists use that information to make more tire dope. And if you think its not true ask some of these racers that have been around it and through it.

I had a Illinois racer message me last night to tell me about another technique that has been employed recently. It is unreal the lengths guys are going to with this stuff.

It is possible that AR could become more widely used. In fact that is already happening with some tracks and series. I think the issue for them is they are a smaller company. I would speculate that their production is about 1/3 of Hoosier's in regards to volume. But as they ramp up production the cost of the tire will also have to go up to cover the costs of producing more. And inevitably if they keep going head to head Hoosier will introduce additional compounds to compete with them. Because at the end of the day 99.9% of racers don't care if it lasts longer if the tire is slower.

And when I managed SAS in the 2000s I had teams that had as many as 45 wheels and tires with them at any given race. I am glad you survived it because a lot of teams didn't (including my little team). And I have already seen it. My SAS race at Screven there were racers that had at least 25-30 wheels and tires with them. And none of these guys I am talking about were going to Florida. They had both ARs and Hoosiers.

I think that people take me for a Hoosier homer but I am not. I have always been about having a choice in brands as long as they are apples to apples and in limited compounds. But right now we cannot do that because the ARs are not the same as the Hoosiers. I just want fewer compounds. Its why I was such an advocate for the NLMT rule. I am not happy that the compounds were different than what I thought (one of them was supposed to be 1350 rubber which for my money is the best tire they ever made).

[flagone]

I think another thing that no one thinks about is exactly how delicate the tire world is. Hoosier is owned by a huge company. If they hit hard times and Hoosier is not making acceptable profits - poof it is gone. And no one in the industry could immediately fill that void. No one. If we thought the tire shortage was bad 2 years ago, imagine what it would be if the major player didn't produce tires at all for 6-12 months or more.

The same thing is true with AR, though they are a smaller company, one bad deal (a lawsuit, a fire, a tornado, etc.) could wipe them out for a long time too.

[LM1]

Great insight, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Teams sometimes change shock brands 3 times a year with zero gain. They made a bad decision. Same goes with tires. 4 tires and various grooving is going to serve you as well as bringing 10 different ones. No one has all the data on all the tire options and all the grooving techniques. It's simply guessing at best that the racers thinks he needs every option in production. In this case, most of the current Hoosier are trash, so it's pretty easy to eliminate options.

Racers act in their own worst interest all the time. Just because someone buys something doesn't mean it actually is needed or even helps. Some seem to just race to spend all they can. It was the same with engines, before all the rules guys gave them enough downforce to finally use the power. That change is where most of the real cost to operate a dirt late model has come from.

Delicate tire world? That's been orchestrated by guys accepting checks and jackets. It's hard for a supply chain to be healthy with 1 supplier allowed.

[EvelB7]

Thank you Kelly and I agree completely-a majority of racers do not want open tire rules. Funny thing is, as much as people on here want to blame Blue Ridge- the racers didn't. Why the tires were wrong is the question and it really doesn't matter (and can't). Maybe the compounds Hoosier has aren't the best (would depend on where you are racing) but it is the same for everyone. The short time Goodyear stepped in to the game it sure shook things up, and made underfunded racers feel they were on a level playing field (boy that didn't last long). The changes at Hoosier and the new rules truly are aimed at the same thing. It is just my opinion; I just want to be able to feel we have a chance and be able to afford another season.

[jog49]

"The only reason that I added this secondary testing is to shut naysayers up about testing."

But for a brief moment KB, you forgot with whom you are dealing! LOL! Some of these people would argue with CDC whether Covid-19 was deadly and never be convinced!

[Barbecueboy]

There is no one in the racing world I respect more than Flagone….no one.

It’s always great to hear the insight that he provides from all of the experience the rest of us can only hope to see or witness. That being said, Fans deserve better than to find out who won the race a few weeks later. I personally think the answer is series issues tires for every event ( or something similar to it) but according to some that will run off the locals….well, make an exception or don’t let them run in a race many of them shouldn’t be in anyway.
I have zero answers, a lot of questions but the optics of the current rule sux from a fan and small sponsors point of view.
Thanks to Kelly for being the voice of reason.

[blncfn57]

All this talk about how rampant this tire doctoring is, you'd think we would have people being caught every week instead of maybe a couple once a year.

[blncfn57]

Some of these people would argue with CDC whether Covid-19 was deadly and never be convinced!

That's a poor argument, really..... JS