So, SAS-LUCAS-WoO, we're all concerned about $Expensive$ Shock Systems, What about...

[RayburnBaby]

Jeff what I was talking about is in my area people complained about the Cost of super late model so all tracks have dropped super late model class. So the teams that were running super regionally have now spend big $ in limited an crate because they don't have a place to run there open motors. So they went to places like Vic hill, Clements, an Cornett an are building 700hp 25,000 dollar steel head engines. An on another note local engine builders are not building open motors anymore so they have passed the cost down to the steel head guys to make up for there losses. You can get on racing junk or on here an find good fresh open motors for 10-15 thousand. A good used steel head is the same price or higher. I'd say the reason is demand there's no where to run open motors locally. An I had a 525 an I wish all you guys that think there great would go get one I was not impressed at all. An when it tears up good luck waiting 6 months for gm to fix it.

[Barbecueboy]

My opinion, not that anybody asked...but...super late model racing is going to become what nascar became. 30 or so teams in the country, who have a situation where money is no object, or it may even become where major sponsors are involved. No way in h.e.l.l. can the average or even above average racer continue to play super late model racer with the current costs. Its just so far put of control, and I dont see how anybody can justify spending upwards of 100k (when you include all the extras) to race weekly for 1000.00. That is completely ridiculous. I know some people do it, but no way can it continue. Crates were ruined in our area with cheating. They didnt keep people honest by teching.
The truth of the matter is....I dont care if you held a big wheel race in a wal mart parking lot, if you let them, somebodys going to roll up in a nascar hauler with a big wheel program you wont believe. I dont see anyway of fixing it. Maybe hockey puck hard tires on the local level. Problem with that is the track owners are in bed with tire manufacturing companies most of the time. I know around here supers are just about done for....and the ones left get run over when the big boys come to town.

Nope...nobody asked for your opinion, but I am dam glad you chimed in!

Your post is on the MONEY!!!!

[fastford]

It is a sealed motor making 525HP, how on earth would it even begin to keep up without any "privileges"? You can't honestly say that they should be running at the same weight with 800+HP motors.

Thanks,
Jeff.

where I race, when the track turns dry slick, that 800hp engine don't mean near as much as weight distribution and rear down force from a taller spoiler. just look at the limited classes, they started letting the 604 , aluminum headed crate motors run with the all steel limited engines and gave them 100# weight break and big spoiler. even though they were down 150hp, in the slick the all steel engine with less rear weight is at a huge disadvantage . I say let the crates have there own class and if you run a super with a all aluminum engine, I don't care what kind it is, you should have the same rules. this debate will go on for ever between engine builders and general motors wanting to sell there product .

[W2Racing09]

where I race, when the track turns dry slick, that 800hp engine don't mean near as much as weight distribution and rear down force from a taller spoiler. just look at the limited classes, they started letting the 604 , aluminum headed crate motors run with the all steel limited engines and gave them 100# weight break and big spoiler. even though they were down 150hp, in the slick the all steel engine with less rear weight is at a huge disadvantage . I say let the crates have there own class and if you run a super with a all aluminum engine, I don't care what kind it is, you should have the same rules. this debate will go on for ever between engine builders and general motors wanting to sell there product .

That still does not solve the problem of declining SLM car counts. All that would do is fracture the Late Models into two classes running laps within a second or two of each other. Someone, somewhere will have to address this issue. They might get through this season, and maybe the next or a few more after that without any changes. But down the road tracks will not pay a $10k purse, let alone $20k for races with 18-20 cars.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

this should end your stupidity W2 but i'm sure it wont. PPMS has offered the supr spec motor and ct 525 option for years !!!! years !!! They allow the spec a giant 12" wing and 2 nose spill boards and they let them run 1425's the ct 525 is allowed all of that plus a 14" spoiler !!!! PPMS is typically soo slick that the crate winner is usually only a 1/2 second off the super winner, the idea situation for the 525 or spec because running 1425's instead of 1600's is a HUGE advantage and guess what ????? they got SOOOOOOOOO many cars that they dropped super for weekly shows. They ended up with maybe 8 cars a night and only 1 guy bought a 525 and he's probably the richest dude to ever race a car there. Spec option , ct 525 option and No FUKING cars !!!!! Guys who run open engines don't want to race against soft tires and massive spoilers on a track that will only hold 550hp. So now what ??? They created your wet dream and ended up wit 8-10 cars a night ... I know what your going to say next because they only paid 1200 to win and 225 for 10th .... if only they paid 5k and 500 to start weekly lol lol lol when ppms has 5k to win shows with your same dream rules they pull 20-22 cars .. so now what ??? the people at the bama bash realized they would take massive losses they couldn't afford due to other conditions outside their control and chose to cut the purse before the race weekend!!! they didn't do it once everyone was there so I have no issue with it. I love how some how you sitting on the outside some how know if financial viability of paying 15K when you have none of the financial numbers to determine anything . Would you rather they pay 15 k and go out of business or go on to race another night ??? Clowns like you get off on thinking track owners should take massive losses to get your jollys off as you sit in the grand stands and stroke taffy over your crate super late wet dream that has been a miserable failure.

I'll bring this post over here, because I think Huck meant to post it here but got confused.

So, would you build a car specifically to race at only one or two tracks? I know I sure wouldn't, especially not a track as unstable as PPMS, with the other close by option equally unstable (Roaring Knob). If the engine was legal at Dog Hollow, Lernerville, Eriez, Stateline, Hagerstown, PPMS, Roaring Knob, Winchester, Marion, etc. then I suspect you would have more cars using the CT525. Not everyone is going to run out in the first year or two and buy one. It would be a slow phase in type process where new drivers would consider it an option and maybe 1/3rd of them would go that route instead of into the Crate division.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[fastford]

That still does not solve the problem of declining SLM car counts. All that would do is fracture the Late Models into two classes running laps within a second or two of each other. Someone, somewhere will have to address this issue. They might get through this season, and maybe the next or a few more after that without any changes. But down the road tracks will not pay a $10k purse, let alone $20k for races with 18-20 cars.

Thanks,
Jeff.

might get through this season ? okie dokie , when you take your white collar money you spoke of earlier and buy you a 525 and have raced a few years, ie gained some sort of experience racing on dirt, then we will discuss this again. this discussion has done been hashed over and over again on here , and I might add by people with a lot of years and experience racing dirt, and we still have no real answer of yet. I like to think things, economy in general, will get better and so will racing, good day.....

[W2Racing09]

might get through this season ? okie dokie , when you take your white collar money you spoke of earlier and buy you a 525 and have raced a few years, ie gained some sort of experience racing on dirt, then we will discuss this again. this discussion has done been hashed over and over again on here , and I might add by people with a lot of years and experience racing dirt, and we still have no real answer of yet. I like to think things, economy in general, will get better and so will racing, good day.....

How does experience racing on dirt help with this discussion at all? Isn't it the drivers who repeatedly outspend themselves over and over and over in every division (from UCARS to Sprint Cars on dirt, asphalt and whatever other surface can be raced on). How is racing on asphalt so different from dirt from an economic stand point? Asphalt SLM car counts went down in my home state, so Crates were introduced. Asphalt car counts went up, asphalt car counts are still up.

The SLM division has one weekly track in the state and gets decent (although declining) car counts. They get a good amount of fans weekly. The rest of the tracks in the area have either gone full crate (ACT Tour) or a mixture of built and crate motors and the car counts have gone up at all tracks. I can document that if you need me to, although I expect that when confronted with proof and logic you will still disagree.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Josh Bayko]

How does experience racing on dirt help with this discussion at all? Isn't it the drivers who repeatedly outspend themselves over and over and over in every division (from UCARS to Sprint Cars on dirt, asphalt and whatever other surface can be raced on). How is racing on asphalt so different from dirt from an economic stand point? Asphalt SLM car counts went down in my home state, so Crates were introduced. Asphalt car counts went up, asphalt car counts are still up.

The SLM division has one weekly track in the state and gets decent (although declining) car counts. They get a good amount of fans weekly. The rest of the tracks in the area have either gone full crate (ACT Tour) or a mixture of built and crate motors and the car counts have gone up at all tracks. I can document that if you need me to, although I expect that when confronted with proof and logic you will still disagree.

Thanks,
Jeff.

CJ Rayburn tried a mixed super/525 series five or six years ago where the 525 got all kinds of concessions. It failed.

[W2Racing09]

CJ Rayburn tried a mixed super/525 series five or six years ago where the 525 got all kinds of concessions. It failed.

What did he pay?
Where did they race?
Who did they race against?

I think there would be much better results if an established series allowed them. You can't try to start a new series up with all kinds of new ideas. Its the same issue where nobody trusts that it will be successful enough to make the $10k investment in a motor that can't be run anywhere else if the series fails.

[Josh Bayko]

What did he pay?
Where did they race?
Who did they race against?

I think there would be much better results if an established series allowed them. You can't try to start a new series up with all kinds of new ideas. Its the same issue where nobody trusts that it will be successful enough to make the $10k investment in a motor that can't be run anywhere else if the series fails.

If I remember correctly, the races mostly paid 3k to win. Most of the races were in Kentucky and Tennessee, and I'm not sure what you mean by who did they race against. That question doesn't even make sense.

[W2Racing09]

If I remember correctly, the races mostly paid 3k to win. Most of the races were in Kentucky and Tennessee, and I'm not sure what you mean by who did they race against. That question doesn't even make sense.

I'm not sure why you have been so hostile, I've always respected your posts. Especially earlier in this post accusing me of not knowing how racing works. That was one of the most ignorant things I've ever read on this board. I don't agree with Huck on a lot of things but I don't discount the fact that he knows a lot about racing. The same for you, I don't always agree with you but you seem to have a pretty good grasp of what is going on. I'm not insulting anyone in this post, I'm stating my opinion on the matter, clearly there are a bunch who agree with it and there are a bunch who don't. Everyone else has been for the most part respectful, you are the last person I expected to start having problems with.

Who did they race against, IE: What tracks, series, etc. did they race against? Did they schedule around the other series or tracks?

That is the first step to starting a new series, if you run against other series and track it will be hard to build your car count. You are asking them to take a chance, stop doing what they are and have been doing and come race with you instead.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[hucktyson]

Basically what this toss off wants is Lucas and WOO to allow the 525 and give it enough breaks to
Make it win the majority of the races inspite of the talent disparity between the guys that will be in the 525 cars. He wants to figure a way to slow the real super down enough to make a 525 competitive under all conditions to essentially give guys no choice but to run it. This is a guy who doesn't race under current rules and wouldn't race under his socialist Utopia rules either . He refuses to hear that a lot of the local guys only spend a couple grand a year maintaining their engines . He sticks to the narritive that all racers use RY45 based engines and it's impossible to win under any condition without and RY45 based engine. Just ignore the fact that an RY 45 based engine didnt win either major touring title last year. The tracks can only hold soo much power and the 13/10chevy /d3 ford stuff makes plenty of power to win anywhere. But hey don't let facts get in the way of the W2 fantasy

[W2Racing09]

Basically what this toss off wants is Lucas and WOO to allow the 525 and give it enough breaks to
Make it win the majority of the races inspite of the talent disparity between the guys that will be in the 525 cars. He wants to figure a way to slow the real super down enough to make a 525 competitive under all conditions to essentially give guys no choice but to run it. This is a guy who doesn't race under current rules and wouldn't race under his socialist Utopia rules either . He refuses to hear that a lot of the local guys only spend a couple grand a year maintaining their engines . He sticks to the narritive that all racers use RY45 based engines and it's impossible to win under any condition without and RY45 based engine. Just ignore the fact that an RY 45 based engine didnt win either major touring title last year. The tracks can only hold soo much power and the 13/10chevy /d3 ford stuff makes plenty of power to win anywhere. But hey don't let facts get in the way of the W2 fantasy

I made the only correct part of your post bold.

I certainly don't want the CT525 to be given so many breaks that it wins the majority of the races. As I said previously in this thread if the CT525 were made even close to competitive in every condition (as the Open motors are) that would be fine. Any shortfalls could be made up by a good driver. Currently if you put Josh Richards or Scott Bloomquist in a CT525 based car they would be lucky to win the non-qualifiers race. I would like the CT525 to be competitive enough that if Josh Richards and Bloomquist were running one they would still be a threat to win as they are now.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[bb14]

Why don't Chevy build a competitive crate to compete. The reason is cost. The 454r has an iron block and costs $25k. I would much rather have a used aluminum motor that is cheaper to repair and most certainly more reliable in racing conditions.

CJ will build you a modified 525 based engine rather cheap but it also has an iron block so your repair and percentages suffer.

Jeff I understand your logic but not many racers like the crate concept. Racing is expensive. Late models are really expensive. Just a fact. 525 is a limited engine at best. It is competitive due to the percentage advantage it gives due to the aluminum.

I used to think the same way but I have watched crates kill the sport in the south.

[fastford]

Basically what this toss off wants is Lucas and WOO to allow the 525 and give it enough breaks to
Make it win the majority of the races inspite of the talent disparity between the guys that will be in the 525 cars. He wants to figure a way to slow the real super down enough to make a 525 competitive under all conditions to essentially give guys no choice but to run it. This is a guy who doesn't race under current rules and wouldn't race under his socialist Utopia rules either . He refuses to hear that a lot of the local guys only spend a couple grand a year maintaining their engines . He sticks to the narritive that all racers use RY45 based engines and it's impossible to win under any condition without and RY45 based engine. Just ignore the fact that an RY 45 based engine didnt win either major touring title last year. The tracks can only hold soo much power and the 13/10chevy /d3 ford stuff makes plenty of power to win anywhere. But hey don't let facts get in the way of the W2 fantasy

best post yet huck!!!!

[fastford]

How does experience racing on dirt help with this discussion at all? Isn't it the drivers who repeatedly outspend themselves over and over and over in every division (from UCARS to Sprint Cars on dirt, asphalt and whatever other surface can be raced on). How is racing on asphalt so different from dirt from an economic stand point? Asphalt SLM car counts went down in my home state, so Crates were introduced. Asphalt car counts went up, asphalt car counts are still up.

The SLM division has one weekly track in the state and gets decent (although declining) car counts. They get a good amount of fans weekly. The rest of the tracks in the area have either gone full crate (ACT Tour) or a mixture of built and crate motors and the car counts have gone up at all tracks. I can document that if you need me to, although I expect that when confronted with proof and logic you will still disagree.

Thanks,
Jeff.

sorry, ive already good dayed you.....

[W2Racing09]

sorry, ive already good dayed you.....

I won't shed any tears, I promise.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

Why don't Chevy build a competitive crate to compete. The reason is cost. The 454r has an iron block and costs $25k. I would much rather have a used aluminum motor that is cheaper to repair and most certainly more reliable in racing conditions.

CJ will build you a modified 525 based engine rather cheap but it also has an iron block so your repair and percentages suffer.

Jeff I understand your logic but not many racers like the crate concept. Racing is expensive. Late models are really expensive. Just a fact. 525 is a limited engine at best. It is competitive due to the percentage advantage it gives due to the aluminum.

I used to think the same way but I have watched crates kill the sport in the south.

This is a completely legit question, because I do not live in the South and never have.

How do you think Crates have killed racing in the South?

In response to your post, I understand we are coming from totally different sides of the country and I understand drivers generally rebel against this stuff. But the issue is not that I have a secret agenda or that I want to get a CT525. The main problem is that myself and many others want to continue being able to see the SLM division. On its current path I don't think it will be around much longer, especially not weekly. I have several local tracks running them weekly and I don't ever consider going anywhere else on a free weekend. When the division dies I might not go to the races as much, and right now I'm hitting 45 or so races every year. How many more will stop going completely?

If we as a sport were gaining fans, cars and sponsors on a regular basis I would drop this idea in a minute. But the bottom line is, we have seen how our current rules work to further that agenda, and it isn't good. Why so resistant to try something new? Especially something that would not have any effect on those already racing in the division. Just giving the option for the CT525 with a weight break and big spoiler. If it works and people start using it then great, if it does not then okay nothing changed.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Brian Gray]

bottom line the 525 should be allowed as an option without breaks and without having to meet the sealed motor requirement.

its a cheaper alternative and a good starting point but i disagree with giving crate advantages and i disagree with them having to goto "special builders" to be sealed.

[bb14]

There are no super tracks running weekly in SC, one in NC, one in GA. East TN used to be a hotbed. I don't think they have anymore either. When crates started some new people bought them but once they found out how much it cost to operate a late model most quit. Some of the super guys dropped back too. The fans didn't like the racing and quit going. It is not the same show. Now that the tracks didn't have the people the crate purses were cut. More racers quit. If the tracks would have never done away with limiteds we may still have late models. I wish the crates and limiteds would be combined including 525. We do have a series of limiteds and the 525 is competitive.