CT 525 Late models. Where do they belong?

[Bubstr]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

[W2Racing09]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

That argument I can't stand. The cost is certainly an advantage, but using that argument I might as well not race because that is a huge cost savings over racing. Nobody will consider it if it does not get breaks to be competitive.

You would expect someone to buy a $10k motor, and a $20k car to put it in and then happily wave at the leaders as they get lapped for the third time and say well at least I didn't spend as much as them... No they will just quit racing.

If it does not have any effect on the other cars in any way then there is no reason not to give the CT525 some breaks to allow it to compete. Nobody is asking for it to be dominant, just for it to have a chance. If there is a way to get the CT525 to be able to run similar lap times to the Open LM then what is the harm in it?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

I agree with the part about all of the divisions, so how does it help to relegate the CT525 to its own division? Are you saying the motor should not be used in dirt track racing applications? A $10,000 crate motor that is capable of racing with the SLM division with a few breaks and has rebuild costs that are a fraction of that of an open motor should not be considered for dirt track racing?

[hucktyson]

Jeff the problem is that if guys don't have money to rebuild the motors they already have where would they get the 12k to get a 525 in their car ???

[fastford]

So to the haters that think a 12" spoiler is too much downforce, then what about the added drag it produces? How come none of you ever mention that?

And have any of you sat down and figured out the power/weight ratios of these engines before you started pecking away at the keyboard? I'm just wondering how you guys formulate your opinions?

Here are some common weights/power numbers for these engines:

Engine: 602-604-525-Spec-Open
HP :350-400-525-615-800
Weight:2200-2300-2250-2200-2300
HP/LBS:0.16-0.17-0.23-0.28-0.35

I've raced against all of these engine types before. Every one of them has a time and a place. Just like a shock.....you need the right shock for the right track, you need the right engine for the right track. Also, the torque/hp curves of these engines have a lot to do with how they perform on different conditions.

There was a race in Lousiana a few weeks ago and there was basically no difference in the lap times between the fastestd spec car and the fastest crate. With my spec motor I've been beat by crate cars and 525's. I've also beat open motor cars. The only place the open motors have a true advantage is on the big tracks(4/10mile, 1/2mile) but thats not to say races can't be won with less.

Didn't Steve Francis come from the rear to the front at East Bay this year on 7 cylinders? He would have been down around 100hp. William Thomas and Ronnie Johnson have won against open motors utilizing far less.

If you can't hook it up then its no good to you! I think most are too quick to blame lack of power rather than driver/setup ability as why they got out ran.

if you were running the supr spec then of course your gone get beat, 60cc heads and flat top pistons and steel block are no match for a 525 , plus you have to pull more weight, whats fair about that? or maybe you love these generic box engines so much you don't care. I am a spec motor person and switched to the sas spec where I can at least run a dome piston, but still have more front end weight and have to pull 50 more lbs. and your example of francis at east bay means nothing to me, an all aluminum engine going from 850 t0 750hp probable helped him. my opinion of the 525 is yes they can run super if they want but I stand by my idea of no special privileges , I don't consider that hating, but being fair, kind of sounds like your hating on the supers , the ones that can afford to buy an open engine and the ones like me that are loyal to my brand and have to build my own, so take it how ever you want. oh, and in my opinion, what happened to asphalt short track racing was a crate engine, example ASA .

[W2Racing09]

Jeff the problem is that if guys don't have money to rebuild the motors they already have where would they get the 12k to get a 525 in their car ???

I think this would be director more as a cost effective way for new people to enter the sport. If a current driver is tapped out to the point that they cannot afford to refresh their motor then there is not much they can do at that point aside from moving down to 604 Crates or something. Racing is expensive, I think the CT525 program could help to mitigate some of the costs, but it definitely wont make it cheap.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

if you were running the supr spec then of course your gone get beat, 60cc heads and flat top pistons and steel block are no match for a 525 , plus you have to pull more weight, whats fair about that? or maybe you love these generic box engines so much you don't care. I am a spec motor person and switched to the sas spec where I can at least run a dome piston, but still have more front end weight and have to pull 50 more lbs. and your example of francis at east bay means nothing to me, an all aluminum engine going from 850 t0 750hp probable helped him. my opinion of the 525 is yes they can run super if they want but I stand by my idea of no special privileges , I don't consider that hating, but being fair, kind of sounds like your hating on the supers , the ones that can afford to buy an open engine and the ones like me that are loyal to my brand and have to build my own, so take it how ever you want. oh, and in my opinion, what happened to asphalt short track racing was a crate engine, example ASA .

On your ASA comment: You can make the same argument about open motors. Hav-A-Tampa, Three State Flyers, and other open series which fell by the wayside. Lack of support happens everywhere. It is probably more difficult to start an all crate series up, you are asking people to invest in a car that they can only race in one place. Aside from that we are not saying start a CT525 series (although that has already been done in your area) but rather to include the CT525 cars in as a more affordable option for the hyper-expensive Super Late Modesl that currently exist.

How is it not fair? If you take a 500hp motor, a 600 hp motor and a 800 hp motor and run them all under the same rules the 800 hp motor is going to win 9.9/10 times. That is not competition, that is the 800 hp cars racing and avoiding some moving roadblocks at the same time. There need to be some additional changes made to allow the 500hp car and the 600hp car to race with the 800hp car. That is just how it is. If you don't do that you are going to have a division of 500hp cars with 10 cars, a division of 600hp cars with 10 cars and a division of 800hp cars with 10 cars. Three low car counts instead of one race with 30 cars.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[fastford]

sorry jeff, you don't have the credentials yet to argue with me about this subject , your making a hypothesis's, which is an educated guess, when you have some real world experience in DLM racing , check back with me. and by the way, I think there are more super series now than there was during the havatampa day.

[taylor2727]

My question or problem is when someone takes the 525 rebuilds it and now has 700+ and is claiming they still have a 525 and still deserve the breaks u want them to have

[fastford]

oh no, are you saying a crate racer would cheat????? lol

[Bubstr]

I agree with the part about all of the divisions, so how does it help to relegate the CT525 to its own division? Are you saying the motor should not be used in dirt track racing applications? A $10,000 crate motor that is capable of racing with the SLM division with a few breaks and has rebuild costs that are a fraction of that of an open motor should not be considered for dirt track racing?

The simple fact is, they are not a open motor and if someone wants to save money and run with the open LMs, They should be welcome, as long as they fit the rules. Do you think that guy that paid 4X as much for a engine, cares if they want a weight break, more spoiler or even a head start? They belong with the crate racers, not with the big boys. The big boys series aren't going to tear down a crate to see if it was legal. They're all legal. It's open motor. That's why it's the premier class with largest pay outs. It's get tough or get out. This is one of the few sports, that Joe Blow can come to any event and be allowed to compete in the top division. Try that in any other sport. It isn't going to happen. Try taking a Nag to the Kentucky Derby and talking them into allowing you to use drugs to make it fast. The purse money would go away PDQ, even though the Nag was cheaper.

[Clayton_Wetter]

[Matt49]

Scenario: An average Joe driver like me is offered two cars to choose from to race on a shiny black slick race track. Car A has a crate motor and 12" spoiler. Car B has an open motor and an 8" spoiler. The driver that chooses car A will be much better off.
The reason touring professionals would never take this package to the race track is for several reasons:
1) They are professional drivers and know how to manage the power in slick conditions
2) They are professional drivers and know how to manage traction without a 12" spoiler
3) They qualify on tacky tracks and you need all the power you can get in those conditions

[Clayton_Wetter]

18Fan{quote}

I grew up in Iowa and spent many hours during the summer driving a water truck around a race track. My dad, brother and I would put water on the track in the evening twice during the week and then spend all day Friday watering for Friday night races. If there was rain during the week that might alter those plans but that track was never dusty. I also spent a lot of Saturday nights watching sprint cars in Knoxville and when you walked to the pits after the races your feet stuck to the track like glue. I will say the clay content in the track has a lot to do with it's ability to hold moisture but is not an excuse for a dusty track. I always heard that Knoxville gets clay dug up from the bottom of the Mississippi river. Anyways here is to wet / tacky racetracks.

[W2Racing09]

My question or problem is when someone takes the 525 rebuilds it and now has 700+ and is claiming they still have a 525 and still deserve the breaks u want them to have

If you rebuild it then it wont have the seal, if it does not have the seals it does not get the weight break or other benefits.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

sorry jeff, you don't have the credentials yet to argue with me about this subject , your making a hypothesis's, which is an educated guess, when you have some real world experience in DLM racing , check back with me. and by the way, I think there are more super series now than there was during the havatampa day.

Good strategy for not losing an argument,

I don't really need to prove anything to you. I already know the CT525 can keep up with an SLM with the correct weight breaks and aero breaks. Seems there are many tracks that understand that considering they run by the rules I'm arguing for.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[hygty]

the ct 525 can run very competitive in fact lucas and woo outlawed said they were uinfair advantage with the coil pack bloomer won a race with it the ct525 runs great on the 1/5 th mile to 1/3 mile bullrings get any bigger and they are not plus they can run on pump gas

[ClampedUp]

If you rebuild it then it wont have the seal, if it does not have the seals it does not get the weight break or other benefits.

Thanks,
Jeff.

You can buy GM factory seals from various places.
Stan Lester from Fastrak swore up and down when he started Fastrak there was no way Joe racer or Joe engine shop could obtain factory seals.
He was proven wrong quite quickly.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Good strategy for not losing an argument,

I don't really need to prove anything to you. I already know the CT525 can keep up with an SLM with the correct weight breaks and aero breaks. Seems there are many tracks that understand that considering they run by the rules I'm arguing for.

Thanks,
Jeff.

It can win races without nose side boards and big spoilers. Guys like Zach Dohm and Ronnie Johnson would make a mockery of the races with the rules you are promoting.

[W2Racing09]

It can win races without nose side boards and big spoilers. Guys like Zach Dohm and Ronnie Johnson would make a mockery of the races with the rules you are promoting.

Not sure when Dohm started running a 525 but he has run at the Knob before (where the rules I'm advocating are in place) and I do not see anything in the win column for him by searching on google. He may have won before but it seems he has run there several times and not won as well. I don't think the aero benefits really amount to much, in fact just the set back and weight break probably account for enough, if that wasn't enough then the 12" spoiler would do it. No spillboards required.

Thanks,
Jeff.