if we want supers to survive

[grt74]

I guess I'm not seeing the need or reasoning behind the entry fee? Whenever I see an entry fee, I feel the track/series is hoping cars break before the consi/feature so they don't have to pay them anything and would then profit off their being there (the entry fee on top of pit passes/concessions/etc.). Or is it a gimmick so you can show the start money as one thing (in this case $200), but it's really only $120 because we overlooked the $80 entry fee? At least help me understand the need/reasoning behind it, as I know virtually nothing from the promotional side of things.

And @ptown (I apologize, but my reply function has never worked on here), I know you often take a bunch of grief for some of your posts, but what 8 cars from 8/25 at Farmer City were Crates? I was one of the 18 cars that started the feature, and despite not being much faster than some of the "Crates" around these parts, I am every bit a SLM as I can be with my availability of resources. I actually can't think of one Crate that ran our class that night, but maybe I'm wrong. If the comment was meant to be insulting, then by all means join me one night and tell me where I am going wrong. I'll even pay your way in!

So as for the original problem/solutions, I'd love to see the old days of a trophy dash for the fastest 6 cars. The finish of the dash makes up the first three rows of the feature. From there on back is lined up from qualifying times (7 through whatever), and I know, I complain about straight up starts....but the heats are inverted so the slowest guy starts on the pole of the first heat (see my previous post/rants about keeping guys, and girls, interested). If you're fast and don't want to risk getting tore up starting in the back of a heat, don't run it. You'll get to start up front for the feature because once again, that goes back to the dash and qualifying times. And these races will take place at Krooser's track, because he pays $ for the heats (Yes!!!).

the reason for the entry fee is so the tracks don't take all of the burden, it won't work with out one, tracks are having a ruff time for the most part, im really just trying to look out for the sport as a whole, more rules =more money, and thats if they get in forced(we have that now in crates)
from talking to several guys and teams, an entry fee wasn't a big deal as long as it was reasonable,

at 1000 to win, if you do win you might have broke even,3 pit passes, race fuel, rr tire, laps on the engine, and fuel for the truck to get there and poof you might have broke even, there is just no chance to even break even for the night(for the most part) with 1000 to win, and it doesn't take rocket science to figure that one out

now im completely aware that we are not in it for the money, hell the top guys couldn't do it if they didn't get sponsors and product sponsors, but it would be nice to break even or maybe make a little for the night if you are lucky enough to get a win, and thats where im going with this

any dirt late model racing is expensive if you running up front, thats just the facts to compete
i don't believe the answer is to split the classes up the way they have, crates were to help get people started and use up old equipment that was considered out dated, now look at where we are at

save the supers, thats what got us here, and how are you going to get a shot at a big race with the summer nats , woo, or lucas, if your not used to running a super???
and the fans love out of control racing, because you just don't know what could happen, youll have to be there to see it!!!!

[play4kps]

At Oakshade the racing is usually good, cheap food, big crowds, and lets be honest, they dont put any money back into the place. But thats ok with me, Id rather watch great racing at a dump than crappy racing at the Taj ma hal.

[Krooser]

play4kps is spot on....

[namgalf]

Crates did not run with the Late Models at FC.

[Krooser]

But a crate COULD run with the supers....

When I was younger we had so many different engine combos... the modified coupes had 283's, 327's, FE Fords. Chrysler Hemi's, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles...every possible make. The fast guys made the main...the others ran the semi. 40 car fields... or better. When a guy went to the Chevy dealer and bought a 375HP 327 'crate' motor everybody bitched because they were INCREASING the cost of racing... funny how things change.

Maybe we had it right 60 years ago....

[Illtsate32]

But a crate COULD run with the supers.... When I was younger we had so many different engine combos... the modified coupes had 283's, 327's, FE Fords. Chrysler Hemi's, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles...every possible make. The fast guys made the main...the others ran the semi. 40 car fields... or better. When a guy went to the Chevy dealer and bought a 375HP 327 'crate' motor everybody bitched because they were INCREASING the cost of racing... funny how things change. Maybe we had it right 60 years ago....

Krooser I won a ump modified feature at belle clair with a 327 sb chevy with an open motor rule...that was years ago at belle clair tho very small track...goes to show not always about motor but body rules and high $ shocks werent really in play yet...

[grt74]

explain oakshade with 30 plus supers every sat night general admission the same all year and pit passes the same all year long

thats in the heart of ill, and indiana, (or on the edge, yes i know ohio) and thats the only area thats surviving supers,

the rest of the country there fading quick

[President Clinton]

At the end of the day.......racing is not a poor mans sport any longer!!! Anytime corporate America gets involved the little guy gets the shaft! It is what it is.

[Forward Bite]

Cheap food at a race track ? Maybe that is a reason Oakshade has good crowds in the grandstand.

[Clayton_Wetter]

why can't they open it up to motors with coil packs and yes time trails stink it puts the fast guys up front which inturns means a lot less passing if their i s less passing it less entertaining which means less crowds and get the car back being stable again with less flips torn up radiators etc etc

Coil packs are for Yugos!!!

[Doc88D]

Oakshade survives because there is NO QUALIFYING, heat winners and runner ups redraw after the heats, (the racers have to RACE), $20 pit passes (no matter what the purse is), and the track gets water in between every race. even if it is just enough to keep the dust down... Oh, also they only run 4 classes of cars. You don't have to see the sun come up to watch a race there.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Back in the eighties/??/

[play4kps]

The big issue is star power! 2/3 of the people want to see big names and thats it! I live 30 minutes from Eldora and work with a lot of race fans. NASCRAP that is. The only time they would go to Eldora is for the truck race or the old one where the nascar guys raced late models, thats it! Never any other time, Oh I forget when eldora has monster trucks, ugghhh!
Last year my vfw had a bunch of extra tickets for the truck race, so I sat out front trying to sell them, very little luck. So I told a guy next to me selling tix, Too bad this wasnt a bigger race, and he looked at me like I was smoking crack and said, what race is bigger here and I said the World 100 or Kings royal, his response was, I never heard of either one and nothing could be bigger than this race, this is Nascar. Welcome to Tonys Eldora. Eldora could do a lot for dirt racing, but is closed 1/2 the season and then pays crappy for regular shows.

[Krooser]

Ill32..... Maybe 10 years ago at Shawano a low buck guy did the same deal.... With a chassis that was junked by another racer and a worn out IMCA claimer engine...

[vande077]

I guess I'm not seeing the need or reasoning behind the entry fee? Whenever I see an entry fee, I feel the track/series is hoping cars break before the consi/feature so they don't have to pay them anything and would then profit off their being there (the entry fee on top of pit passes/concessions/etc.). Or is it a gimmick so you can show the start money as one thing (in this case $200), but it's really only $120 because we overlooked the $80 entry fee? At least help me understand the need/reasoning behind it, as I know virtually nothing from the promotional side of things.

And @ptown (I apologize, but my reply function has never worked on here), I know you often take a bunch of grief for some of your posts, but what 8 cars from 8/25 at Farmer City were Crates? I was one of the 18 cars that started the feature, and despite not being much faster than some of the "Crates" around these parts, I am every bit a SLM as I can be with my availability of resources. I actually can't think of one Crate that ran our class that night, but maybe I'm wrong. If the comment was meant to be insulting, then by all means join me one night and tell me where I am going wrong. I'll even pay your way in!

So as for the original problem/solutions, I'd love to see the old days of a trophy dash for the fastest 6 cars. The finish of the dash makes up the first three rows of the feature. From there on back is lined up from qualifying times (7 through whatever), and I know, I complain about straight up starts....but the heats are inverted so the slowest guy starts on the pole of the first heat (see my previous post/rants about keeping guys, and girls, interested). If you're fast and don't want to risk getting tore up starting in the back of a heat, don't run it. You'll get to start up front for the feature because once again, that goes back to the dash and qualifying times. And these races will take place at Krooser's track, because he pays $ for the heats (Yes!!!).

Agree, entry fees for any local races is dumb, only BIG events should have them IMO.

Entry fees (within reason and that benefits the teams) for big races (World, Dream, Knoxville) doesn't bother me and here's why.

Taken directly from the entry form for the Knoxville Late Model Nationals:

$100 entry fee entitles six from each crew to enter pits every night for $30 each night. Owner will be free. Without crew card, pits are $40 per person each night. After September 1, 2017, entry fee will be $150. Entry fee will be refunded for withdrawals prior to September 11, 2017.

So, you have until the Monday before the race to pick up the phone and withdraw from the race and get all your $$ back too.

So, a team spends $100 to enter the race (3 day event) and gets up to 6 (but let's say it's someone where it's the driver and 2 crew guys and the owner. They get in for $90 each day instead of $160 each day, over the 3 days that $210 that they saved by entering the race by September 1st.

A team that enters after September 1st but before Sept 11th saves $160 over waiting until the weekend of the event to enter.

A team that shows up at the gate spends $210 more over the 3 days than if they pre-entered. For all the complaints about purses and costs being out of control you'd think every team would take advantage of saving $$$ when they could.

This also allows the track to advertise your presence (which when teams and drivers think about it, wouldn't that help them sell T-shirts, get more fans in the stands and hopefully increase the purse in years to come??) in ADVANCE of the race as well.

[zerolm]

This is going to sound absolutely crazy to 99 percent of everyone here, and it will never ever happen but here goes anyway.. Put the cars back flat (dynamically) Easiest way to do this in my mind are some sort of rear suspension rules employing leaf springs on both sides mounted to solid mounts on the chassis. Float the rear end housing still and keep lift arm. Every single late model chassis out there could be easily converted by even novice fabricators, therefore the cost would be minimal. The jacking effect on the body would be eliminated. The forward traction produced by the current 4 link would be eliminated therefore making big money engines pretty useless. The lack of comparative body movement would lessen the effect of expensive shocks. Probably somewhere in the country a relatively unknown driver may luck up and win a crown jewel or something encouraging others to race, keep racing, etc. Again I know this will never happen, and I know that 99.9% of everyone thinks it's crazy but in my mind it kills a whole lot of problems with one stone.

[ptown]

I still say the easiest first step is go back to the body rules they used in the mid 90s.

[Kromulous]

Last 2 posts are spot on, but like you said wont happen.

There is alot you can do really. Steel blocks, limit the LR suspension, raise the front valance, cut down the Spoiler height.

New nose pieces, that are blunt nosed.

Alot of its going to depend on the Sanctioning bodies, if they dont feel anything needs to change it wont. That all depends on how much money is coming into the sport. Right now, i dont see anything changing. If your in Lucas's or WoO shoes why do you need weekly SLM racing?

[fastford]

all these ideas might be the answer to cutting cost on crates and limited , which are supposed to be economical , but no , it want work with supers because thats what they are , and as far as the leaf spring idea , there will still be trick shocks and such to control them and then some one would show up with a carbon fiber or titanium leaf that would cost umpteen thousands of dollars, I say leave them alone like some one else said and let the chips fall where they may...JMO....

[Bubstr]

This is going to sound absolutely crazy to 99 percent of everyone here, and it will never ever happen but here goes anyway.. Put the cars back flat (dynamically) Easiest way to do this in my mind are some sort of rear suspension rules employing leaf springs on both sides mounted to solid mounts on the chassis. Float the rear end housing still and keep lift arm. Every single late model chassis out there could be easily converted by even novice fabricators, therefore the cost would be minimal. The jacking effect on the body would be eliminated. The forward traction produced by the current 4 link would be eliminated therefore making big money engines pretty useless. The lack of comparative body movement would lessen the effect of expensive shocks. Probably somewhere in the country a relatively unknown driver may luck up and win a crown jewel or something encouraging others to race, keep racing, etc. Again I know this will never happen, and I know that 99.9% of everyone thinks it's crazy but in my mind it kills a whole lot of problems with one stone.

It is not exactly true that leaf springs would eliminate the left rear hike and rear steer. Leaf springs are still just springs and will do anything that a coil or torsion bar will. It's just harder to fine tune asymmetrical anti squat. Instead of changing holes for the links, you arch springs and use lowering blocks and spring sliders. It just seems that they didn't hike back iin the day, but we know more now than back in the day. Of course CJ Rayburn said leafs may come back. He may be right. One ery positive aspect o leaf spring is the are the strongest lateral locator you can get. Not as easy to adjust but they won't tear a hole out of the frame rail where the J bar mounts.