Jay D!ckens Facebook post - Good Read on cost.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

MasterSbilt_Racer, I agree 100% about the bodies. They might as well be wedge cars, and fans don't give a rip about the plastic nose on the front of the car. Half the guys don't run any kind of MFG identity there anyways. Might as well just let them run actual wedge noses like they used to run in the early to mid 90's. That would actually be less downforce and help things. It would also make body costs cheaper. As far as smart ones going fast, yes that will always be the case but I still believe that reeling in the tech side of things would make it more accessible to people with realistic budgets. We're not trying to make Scott Bloomquist or Josh Richards LESS competitive. We're trying to make Joe the Plumber and Ricky Local Hotshoe MORE competitive by reducing the amount of resources required to do so. And I don't mean taking the class back to leaf springs and truck arm suspension. I just mean some common sense stuff that could be done to even the playing field.

You can't put the knowledge genie back in the bottle. These cars are complex. You have to know what you are doing. You would be much more effective in your quest to dumb down the cars by putting them back on leafs. Sprint cars have super crude suspension and are exciting. So, it could work.

[mcarter815]

You can't put the knowledge genie back in the bottle. These cars are complex. You have to know what you are doing. You would be much more effective in your quest to dumb down the cars by putting them back on leafs. Sprint cars have super crude suspension and are exciting. So, it could work.

Don't dumb them down too far. The sophistication of the suspension is what makes them interesting.

[Matt49]

Leave the suspension alone. The smaller you make that box, the more ACTUAL engineering you will need to get every ounce of speed out of it. NASCAR's cup series would be exhibit A.
We can keep the innovation in our sport AND keep costs from sky-rocketing like they are.

And back to the shock technology vs engine cost issue. Shock dyno and spring smasher are a one-time or once every 10-year expense and still cheaper than a refresh on an 800+HP motor that you'll need at least once or twice a year. Not to mention the $30K you spend on it up front. Engine cost (I'm talking TOTAL cost of ownership) over a season is easily over two thirds the cost of running a competitive super late model.
For most race teams on a budget, if you need tires you buy tires. If you need shocks repaired or tuned, you get it done. But if you hurt a motor or two, you're likely done for the season.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Leave the suspension alone. The smaller you make that box, the more ACTUAL engineering you will need to get every ounce of speed out of it. NASCAR's cup series would be exhibit A.
We can keep the innovation in our sport AND keep costs from sky-rocketing like they are.

And back to the shock technology vs engine cost issue. Shock dyno and spring smasher are a one-time or once every 10-year expense and still cheaper than a refresh on an 800+HP motor that you'll need at least once or twice a year. Not to mention the $30K you spend on it up front. Engine cost (I'm talking TOTAL cost of ownership) over a season is easily over two thirds the cost of running a competitive super late model.
For most race teams on a budget, if you need tires you buy tires. If you need shocks repaired or tuned, you get it done. But if you hurt a motor or two, you're likely done for the season.

The gains on a leaf package would be much smaller. I think it would honestly be a decent approach in general, but would make it boring for me. I feel like I would be selfish to say it wasn't a workable idea. Sprint cars are still the same animal as 30 years ago because they are stuck with such a basic concept.

[Josh Bayko]

Leave the suspension alone. The smaller you make that box, the more ACTUAL engineering you will need to get every ounce of speed out of it.

The Rumley rules pretty much proved this point.

[fastford]

Hardracer32 , please give us your definition of a spec class and how it differs from what you per-pose ? you can say BS all you want , but when the rules start to specify every thing you must run to be legal , then its SPEC to me . I to was able to compete with a spec engine 10 years ago , but the opens complained about the big spoiler and the weight break until they took it away , and i understand to an extent , guess its all according to what side of the fence your on . I dont have a proble with a spec class , not a crate class where you have to buy and run one engine , But after all , were talking about SUPER LATE MODELS and thats what they need to remain , dyeing or not.

[Kromulous]

USMTS is running a spec motor, how is it working out there?

I really dont know, seems to be doing ok.

[DGI]

USRA and USMTS have a spec head option. It’s a nice piece and makes good power. It seems to work. What if you did a version of that? Like a 15 degree spec head that you can’t touch. 430 cubic inch. Regular aluminum block. Any cam. Any stroke you want. You could still get 750 HP out of the motor at half the cost of the wide bore stuff. It would be a start I would think?

[DGI]

Every sanctioning body in racing has a motor rule with the exception of Super Lates. The motor cost is out of control in super racing. That’s why we are losing the local and regional stuff. That’s why guys are getting out or moving to other divisions of racing in my opinion.

[Josh Bayko]

USMTS is running a spec motor, how is it working out there?

I really dont know, seems to be doing ok.

It’s one of a few options they have. They have different weights and spoiler heights for the different options. Maybe that’s something that could be done is in super lates.

[Matt49]

Just found out GM makes this 572 CID engine with 727 HP, anyone know if these engines have been used for dirt racing?

That motor is for drag racing guys. It wouldn't last two nights on a dirt track. The bottom end of that motor would end up on the track and cost more in cut-down tires than what the buyer paid for it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Just found out GM makes this 572 CID engine with 727 HP, anyone know if these engines have been used for dirt racing?

That engine would kill handling. It weighs as much as 2 super engines.

[Matt49]

That engine would kill handling. It weighs as much as 2 super engines.

Set it back 1 more inch :-) :-)
I'm sure we've lost most of this crowd...

[Clayton_Wetter]

I see, just looked up the weight and it's 750 lbs.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Set it back 1 more inch :-) :-)
I'm sure we've lost most of this crowd...

Good! That's nice....

[t3r3e3]

Ok, now name a guy who is truly a "local" racer, not a regional guy, who has won on the Lucas or WoO tour in the last 3 years.

Second by Unzicker is nice, but it's still not a win, and it was on a 1/5th mile track...not exactly a straight up hp venue.

How long ago was Chris Garner at the WoO I 77 show?

[hardracer32]

Hardracer32 , please give us your definition of a spec class and how it differs from what you per-pose ? you can say BS all you want , but when the rules start to specify every thing you must run to be legal , then its SPEC to me . I to was able to compete with a spec engine 10 years ago , but the opens complained about the big spoiler and the weight break until they took it away , and i understand to an extent , guess its all according to what side of the fence your on . I dont have a proble with a spec class , not a crate class where you have to buy and run one engine , But after all , were talking about SUPER LATE MODELS and thats what they need to remain , dyeing or not.

A true SPEC class is exactly what you would imagine. The series would specify exactly what brand and type of shock you must run, possibly even mandating the part numbers. That's exactly what they do with SPEC engine rules. SAS SPEC heads cant be touched and you have to run their specific heads made by one manufacturer. CRATE racing is a SPEC class when it comes to engines but not anything else. IT's SPEC because you are mandated to run a SPECific part number from GM, hence the SPEC part. I wasn't trying to be a smart alleck so don't take my BS comment so hard. Sorry if it came across that way.

The main point being that you can have rules without making it a SPEC class. But since you brought it up, who's to say that a certain amount of SPECing these things wouldn't hurt.

Here's the main point....Just look at Open Wheel Modifieds. They run 8'' tires, have far less aerodynamics than a Late Model, run a wide variety of engine combinations, and have affordable shocks and suspension pieces. Where these cars run, as far as I've been able to see, they have pretty good car counts, the races are competitive and fun to watch, and you can operate one on a far less hefty budget than even a Crate Late Model. The reason that this works so well is because of the factors that make it useless to spend tons of money on big horsepower. The skinny tires and lack of downforce combined with the limited amount of mechanical traction with their given suspension options. If you take away the traction and downforce then you equalize the field. You also lessen the wear and tear on things like drive train and tires. You can run a wider variety of engines with less disparity between the huge high dollar ones and the more affordable and cheaper to maintain ones.

Will the cars be slower... to some extent, but, I believe that if the series and tracks used some common sense rules that brought things a little more inline with what they were back before we got into all these multiple stack springs on every corner, spoilers 6' in the air, and shocks that adjust in more ways than you can count, the speed difference would be barely noticeble to the fans and the racing and field quality would both improve.

All I really know for sure sure is that I truly love racing. Pretty much ALL racing really. And I just can't stand to see it keep dwindling away because no one will take action and get things headed in a better direction.

[Crashmagnet]

At least people are talking about it. For the last 10 years the building has been smoking and anytime someone said on here that the building was on fire they laughed at him.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Norris races lernerville weekly. Blair races local tracks weekly. Neither of these guys is a regional racer.

[fastford]

hardracer, i agree with a lot of what you say , but , just like when the "economical" crate class first came out , it was suppose to be an economical class , no need to spend money , but guess what , no matter what the rules , you could not keep money out of it , next thing you know , super guys were showing up with crate cars to with every dime they could spend "legally " and that was that. and unless the rules are 50 pages long , policing really will not help , and if you have those 50 pages of rules , then by my definition , you defiantly have a spec class. like i said supers are supers , there are already other classes for less funded teams , limited,s , 604 crates , 602 crates and on down , except none of them are really cheap any more , by yesterdays standards , if you want to be competitive.....