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I heard that too but some of his ideas were out in left field but you could tell he was pretty sharp.The problem was he got aggravated when people question. I will give him this a lot of things he talked about actually came to pass.He was first person I remember talking about low drag hubs and reducing rolling friction etc.
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in response to RW57 engine about a clone 602
GM has done a remarkable job of keeping these engines the same in power and TQ
we have been dynoing these engines since 2006 and have seen very little swing ever in power
we typically have a 3 digit window to call an engine good ---with nothing ever being above that baseline
how would it be possible for individuals to build that same consistency in a "clone" engine?
everyone's natural action is to make it just a "LITTLE" bit better---well guess what --that little bit keeps getting bigger and bigger
if you increase the HP by 1 per cylinder that is a total of 8 HP better---I have never seen any 602 be 8 HP better than another that is not worn out or have an internal issue
I am hoping you can follow my logic and I am up for discussion and debate ---
1 HP per cylinder ---that is very hard for an individual to control when building a "clone"
Brad
www.race-1.com
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I see your logic but my logic on this is it could keep people racing that other wise would have to quit.One of my beefs with crates is the reseal fees I know it's your living but again people like me have to pay to reseal. At my local track you don't even get enough money to pay for reseal after protest the racers have to pull money from their pocket that's not fair to racers .Next question What should protest fee be to cover reseal. Also at my local track people are buying new 602s shipping them off to Tenn to supposedly get them blue printed and make big HP I don't think it's possible to make the HP no they claim what is a good baseline on 602 up.By doing this these people end up with 7500+ in a crate motor.Thanks again.
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I don't know if you understood that I pointed out that first tear down was on me anytime anywhere with that hanging over my head there would no logic in me cheating but you are 100 percent correct about people cheating them up .That like the Nesmith street stocks you can run 602 or built 2 barrel basically as long as it's steel head hyd cam it's open season light wgt crank rods etc. All your fast cars have 2 barrel motors. Go to hunt the front and listen to that 2 barrel it's a 15 grand motor I saw where one had a Jay (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ens 2 barrel motor how in the world can a 602 compete with that.Racing is in trouble and I don't know if it can be saved.Thanks again for what you do.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by brad hibbard
in response to RW57 engine about a clone 602
GM has done a remarkable job of keeping these engines the same in power and TQ
we have been dynoing these engines since 2006 and have seen very little swing ever in power
we typically have a 3 digit window to call an engine good ---with nothing ever being above that baseline
how would it be possible for individuals to build that same consistency in a "clone" engine?
everyone's natural action is to make it just a "LITTLE" bit better---well guess what --that little bit keeps getting bigger and bigger
if you increase the HP by 1 per cylinder that is a total of 8 HP better---I have never seen any 602 be 8 HP better than another that is not worn out or have an internal issue
I am hoping you can follow my logic and I am up for discussion and debate ---
1 HP per cylinder ---that is very hard for an individual to control when building a "clone"
Brad
www.race-1.com
GM may have strived to keep the engines equal right out of the box , but what about when the " certified " engine builders get a hold of them , wink wink ......i have personally saw hp gains that were still with in the rules , but it was not cheap , im not accusing you personally brad , but you know im right........
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by the way , i have saw more than a 1hp per cyl gain just by improving cylinder leak down alone,,,,,
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I heard a noted engine builder in GA tell a person at scales one nite on a 602 I can pick you up 50 hp and it will check right but it's gonna cost you bout 2500$ .
Last edited by RW57; 10-23-2019 at 04:16 PM.
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from fast ford
by the way , i have saw more than a 1hp per cyl gain just by improving cylinder leak down alone,,,,,
I am not talking about engines that have deficiencies
we have a 3 digit window to call an engine good
we never see anything above that number---including legally blueprinted engines---actually more common is to see less power from a blueprinted engine ---they do spin better and have a quicker acceleration rate, I will give you that but they do not make more power ---many times it is less
are there engines below our tolerance to be called "good" ABSOLUTELY--- but I am not referring to those
you also spoke of "certified" engine builders making gains within the rules---
it all depends on who is looking and I grant you there is stuff going on----there are a few key components that have no physical dimension so it makes them difficult to tech
BUT
there is a group of engine builders that have put dimension to those components that I just spoke of and are presenting to GM for updates into the technical manual-----that will wake up a few of those guys with crazy blast machines
But things like moving the cyl head dowel pins and angle milling the block deck surface have already been pinned in the tech shed that I live in and we certainly cover those areas closely in seminars
the whole concept is not perfect and a lot of people do not care for it but it wouldn't be as big as it is if it was all that terrible and corrupt
Brad
www.race-1.com
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RW57
I understand your thought process and your reasons
I truly believe that you believe you are making equal power
I believe you are following all of the guide lines but what about the guy with the big check book and no scruples?
will he follow the guidelines?
Racers are their own worst enemy (and I include myself in this)
"we" want the rules to be as budget minded as possible to SAVE racing but as soon as we get a sniff of the checkered flag we will get a second mortgage on the house to try and buy some more speed.
problem is money is not always the answer and I promise you more power is rarely the answer
I want to tell you this story----
when my kids started in karting ---I bought thousands of dollars of engines (alot of thousands--LOL)
I spent endless money on tires---and they were mid pack at best----I swore everyone up front was cheating
I didn't have the time to spend on the karts in preparation so I spent money on engines and tires
once I made the time to work on the karts I started seeing success---so I worked harder and continued that rend to a point where our oldest most worn out tires and motors would win from just about any starting spot
I am just trying to tell you that I hear you and I get it----I have been there to
Brad
www.race-1.com
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Thanks Brad for the answers When you get a chance again what do most 602s on gas avg hp wise the most I've seen i think is 360 hp is that a good no from your experience. I think we have talked about before is their really any benefit from the so called blue printing. I know of a racer who bought a supposedly blue printed 604 paid a premium price. He had something go wrong so he carried it to a rebuilder closer to him. When this rebuilder took it apart it was just as it came from gm had never been apart. Needless to say he wasn't very happy.
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in response to your power numbers---
watching that peak HP # is OK but watching how long it carries is more important
also don't get caught up in only peak #'s
we look at HP and TQ at 3500--4500--5500 and 6200
6200 is NOT my recommendation for target RPM but we use it in evaluation
my recommended target RPM is 6000
we need quite a bit more information to say if your number is "good"
example:
put it on methanol with a stepped header and torque plates and a 750 carb it is ticking the 400 HP #
but come back to the real world of gas --650 carbs and 1 5/8 headers and we are talking 353
we evaluate every engine with the same components including a very specific fuel ---our air is closely controlled
it is absolutely amazing how close the engines are when done that way
your buddy that paid a premium for a blueprinted motor may or may not have been cheated
depending on the year ---many engines are so close to the performance side of the spec that you can't do anything other than give it a good hone job and put some bearings in it
now if it truly hadn't even been pulled apart that would be a good reason to be upset
Brad
www.race-1.com
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Thanks come on guys surely I can't be the only one with a million questions Lol.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by RW57
Thanks come on guys surely I can't be the only one with a million questions Lol.
RW57, Not picking on you but I can't see doing a clone for 1500.00. Now granted maybe redoing an existing engine (freshen), but if you add in the value of that engine you can't really say you only have 1500.00 in it. I know where your coming from, but if you sell that engine and use that 1500.00 or whatever it would cost to get it done your probably not that far away from just buying the 602.
As brad said, if you let guy's build clone's where does it stop. Guys will be using factory pistons and installing ring spacers and thin rings. Some of those ring sets are over 1000.00. You just open a can of worms, I get that some of the factory parts are way high for what they are but if you let non OEM parts in, where does it stop?
As far as engines, there is a sucker born every minute. How many times does that extra 10HP or 40HP for that matters really the reason you won a race and would have finished farther back? Guy's are looking for an excuse as to why they are getting beat. While we do have one rebuilt engine (because the guy bought it used when he first started and continues to send it back in and use it), all the other engines are straight from speedway. The engine we started the year with was a used 200 lap trade in for repair deal, that we got from speedway. We don't have a low drag rear end, just the standard full open 1 1/2 ton rear end with a 10" ring gear, no scalloped rotors, and etc. According to Durrence Layne only races we won 9 of 15 and had 15 top 5's. These were fields of anything from 37 cars to as little as 12 at times.
According to rumors competitors have blueprinted engine, 5K low drag rear ends, and etc, yet we supposedly have GPS traction control, Cell phone adjustable shocks and a variety of other things. Now I get it, when a car is fairly dominate I would also wonder if the car was legal. I will take a good handling car any day and be down on power over having power.
A good car can make a factory motor look really good, I'm just not concerned with the engines at all as it's the last place I would spend money. There are exceptions depending on the track but for most tracks all I care about is it runs and is in the ball park of factory power.
All this is about a 604*
Last edited by billetbirdcage; 10-24-2019 at 06:16 AM.
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while i do agree for the most part with billett and brad , more power will make a difference a lot of times , now if the crate thing had stayed as it was intended ( a beginners class ) hp might be less significant , but when the more well funded teams got involved and could afford the best up to date equipment and you have say ten quality drivers driving them , then that 20 to 30 hp will make a difference , or at least this is what i have seen around my area , this is JMO ,
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with the progression of chassis suspensions I agree power does come more into play
But a statement that I make daily is
although I feed my family from engine service if I was the crew chief and my choice was to buy a new RR tire or buy 10HP I am going with the tire
I think we are all about on the same page here
Brad
www.race-1.com
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I have 550 in 60 over short block 600 in vortec heads 100 in claimer an and pump 250 in cam lifters timing set 200 in intake used push rods used rockers well actually 1600. It's not balanced will be on e85. I have old motor with 487 heads lift rule cam on e85 with 600 Holley built same way on my cheaper than dirt budget lol that regularly leaves 10 grand pro built motors in it's dust .I really excited to get this motor in car as I figure new motor is at least 100hp better.When you say ultimate cheap skate that's me Lol. The old motor was good on gas but putting it on e85 made it a beast. Hey its 5 yrs old l freshened it once so if it blows it's been a good one. You are correct I could probably get 2500 out of it and put it toward a 602 but I'm still over a grand short plus what's the fun in that.Lol
Last edited by RW57; 10-24-2019 at 02:04 PM.
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Hey Brad another question I use a single roller timing chain instead of a stretchy double roller as I was told on a dyno the single made 8 to 10 more HP maybe because of less stretch who knows this was from a very reliable person that I'm pretty sure you know him. He was also involved in the Ford crate motor that Robert Gant drove that was discussed in another post . Your opinion on the single chain please anyone else using one.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by brad hibbard
with the progression of chassis suspensions I agree power does come more into play
But a statement that I make daily is
although I feed my family from engine service if I was the crew chief and my choice was to buy a new RR tire or buy 10HP I am going with the tire
I think we are all about on the same page here
Brad
www.race-1.com
you could buy several new tires for what some of these " super tuners " charge for that 10 hp so i personally do agree with your choice.....
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hey RW57 , dont give your self to much credit on that cheap skate stuff , most of us ford folks are pretty cheap our selves ....lol.... by the way , i have not heard much out of gant lately , you know any thing ???
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No I will ask Marvin next time I see him .I know he raced some at Fort Payne he would come to Rome some but I didn't see him all year when I went.
Last edited by RW57; 10-24-2019 at 05:12 PM.
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