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droop load
why do guys take droop load out of left rear for slick track? I would think it would take bite out and traction away?
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by racer-15
why do guys take droop load out of left rear for slick track? I would think it would take bite out and traction away?
The ultimate load up the straight comes from how high that corner is lifted. Initial throttle up from antisquat, if it has sat down some. Droop load rotates the car on entry when the car is slowing.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
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So does the bar angle create more traction or the downforce of the body? thanks
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by racer-15
So does the bar angle create more traction or the downforce of the body? thanks
Other than raising the car from ride height to race height, bar thrust does very little and decreases quickly once the car leaves the corner.
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How is weight derived from aero downforcce applied to LR tire if not through the bars?
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by 95shaw
How is weight derived from aero downforcce applied to LR tire if not through the bars?
You have 2 lr shocks, a spring, a 5th coil, rr suspension. Lots of force paths. The top bar is actually put in tension from the force of the spring behind. It spends a lot of time with little to no compression on it.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer
You have 2 lr shocks, a spring, a 5th coil, rr suspension. Lots of force paths. The top bar is actually put in tension from the force of the spring behind. It spends a lot of time with little to no compression on it.
I guess I am not really feeling it.
The lr spring compresses as load is applied. We have used the bars to get to race height, with a zero index birdcage, so the droop load is less than at static ride height.
The shocks still compress, regardless of valving, or we would not get back to static ride height.
5th coil picks up its load in the middle of the car, near static cg. and distributes it to both rear tires. biased by position of lift arm on rearend.
The RR tire cannot be loaded excessively more than LR tire, or car will be verry loose.
Ultimately, need to load the LR somehow.
Last edited by 95shaw; 06-25-2020 at 09:57 AM.
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Interesting conversation, i do know the Spoiler on a SLM is wicked on down force. I rode one of my Motorcycles behind a SLM on an open trailer one day, and wow ! The air flow off that spoiler was insane.
Anyway, how many lbs force do you think is being applied MBR? rough cut i know, ball park guess? 400 lbs or better?
How much force does the lower rod feel? I know we tried a set of the "special rods" once, and he said he could feel the difference, so it must be applying a bit of load, because on the smasher they we're set to move at 1000 lbs
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by 95shaw
I guess I am not really feeling it.
The lr spring compresses as load is applied. We have used the bars to get to race height, with a zero index birdcage, so the droop load is less than at static ride height.
The shocks still compress, regardless of valving, or we would not get back to static ride height.
5th coil picks up its load in the middle of the car, near static cg. and distributes it to both rear tires. biased by position of lift arm on rearend.
The RR tire cannot be loaded excessively more than LR tire, or car will be verry loose.
Ultimately, need to load the LR somehow.
The 5th coil picks up both sides of the car. Where do you think that 1200# comes from? The j bar becomes a load carrying device too. I think you'd be shocked what is left on the lr tire at maximum lateral weight transfer, at least through the load paths you are thinking about.
Last edited by MasterSbilt_Racer; 06-25-2020 at 10:48 AM.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by Kromulous
Interesting conversation, i do know the Spoiler on a SLM is wicked on down force. I rode one of my Motorcycles behind a SLM on an open trailer one day, and wow ! The air flow off that spoiler was insane.
Anyway, how many lbs force do you think is being applied MBR? rough cut i know, ball park guess? 400 lbs or better?
How much force does the lower rod feel? I know we tried a set of the "special rods" once, and he said he could feel the difference, so it must be applying a bit of load, because on the smasher they we're set to move at 1000 lbs
Thrust load comes from relative acceleration. When you are gaining speed off the corner, the bars see a high load. It drops off quickly. How high does compression go on the lr top? I'm not entirely sure.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
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I guess you could find out how much the aero load could be, if you decreased your droop load a bit at a time and see if the car begins to lower on the straights.
Compression in the shocks will slow this, but high gas pressure could provide some lift thou via rod pressure.
How fun would it be to test all this stuff with the proper equipment !
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Thrust load continues all the way down the straight, even though acceleration drops off.
That aero load comes at a cost. No free lunch.
If not applying enough thrust to at least overcome drag, you are decellerating.
The steep bar angles make it easier to stay up against the chain so less thrust force is needed to maintain than was required to get on the bars initially. This allows the car to hold the added aero weight on the LR at race height.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by 95shaw
Thrust load continues all the way down the straight, even though acceleration drops off.
That aero load comes at a cost. No free lunch.
If not applying enough thrust to at least overcome drag, you are decellerating.
The steep bar angles make it easier to stay up against the chain so less thrust force is needed to maintain than was required to get on the bars initially. This allows the car to hold the added aero weight on the LR at race height.
Thrust is directly proportional to acceleration. The car is held up by the need to overcome the loads on the birdcage to rotate it back clockwise.
Last edited by MasterSbilt_Racer; 06-25-2020 at 01:08 PM.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
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I was not their so i can't give all the details but a freind raced two weeks ago and after the heat they noticed the lr tire had gotten into the door. Their not the most observant racers. They pulled the door out and proceeded to eat another hotdog out whatever it is they usually do between races i got a phone call after the heat starting that the car was decent but about half way through the heat the car suddenly got realy tight in. Not knowing anything about the door and tire at the time i just advised him what i would do moving forward given the track conditions he had described. He ran the whole feature. They got back to the trailer after fading from the pole to fifth or sixth and they noticed the tire sitting funny in the wheel well. Finally they looked under the car and the lf top rod had ripped the threads out of a half nut and come off the bird cage. I can't say for sure when it actually came off but the car was raced for at least some amount of laps with no top bar. I would not even thought it could be possible. I can't imagine that ten years ago that would have been possible on say a straight 200#lr spring
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So you are saying that the droop load on the LR spring provides some of the force needed to turn the birdcage clockwise.
Doesn't that mean that the loads are being carried by the bars until that happens?
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by 95shaw
So you are saying that the droop load on the LR spring provides some of the force needed to turn the birdcage clockwise.
Doesn't that mean that the loads are being carried by the bars until that happens?
The top bar has tension from the spring. The lower bar has compression from the spring.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
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Just to be clear for the original poster,
The droop load overcomes the force holding the birdcage locked, and lets the chassis lower slightly, to help the rear rotate the chassis.
Less force holding the birdcage locked on a slick track, so lower droop load numbers.
I think I put that right. lol
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer
The top bar has tension from the spring. The lower bar has compression from the spring.
The question I would ask would be, does this matter?
Lets say you are running an actual 0 index setup with the shock and spring attached to birdcage, and no indexing through travel.
You have some element of tension in the top bar and compression in the bottom preloaded into the system by the spring
Now lets take the exact same setup, remove the shock mount off the birdcage and put a clamp bracket in the exact same location as the birdcage mount. Now the shock is attached to the axle tube but in the same location. (Also disregard axle wrap in this hypothetical scenario)
Now, at no point will either bar be under tension under acceleration (assuming perfectly smooth track). There are no forces added to the bar loads by the spring. Someone used my favorite phrase earlier: "no free lunch". I am not smart enough to do the math and calculate all of the load paths to verify what I am saying, but I have a hard time believing these 2 setups wouldn't act exactly the same.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by Austin34471
The question I would ask would be, does this matter?
Lets say you are running an actual 0 index setup with the shock and spring attached to birdcage, and no indexing through travel.
You have some element of tension in the top bar and compression in the bottom preloaded into the system by the spring
Now lets take the exact same setup, remove the shock mount off the birdcage and put a clamp bracket in the exact same location as the birdcage mount. Now the shock is attached to the axle tube but in the same location. (Also disregard axle wrap in this hypothetical scenario)
Now, at no point will either bar be under tension under acceleration (assuming perfectly smooth track). There are no forces added to the bar loads by the spring. Someone used my favorite phrase earlier: "no free lunch". I am not smart enough to do the math and calculate all of the load paths to verify what I am saying, but I have a hard time believing these 2 setups wouldn't act exactly the same.
With all those assumptions, it would be the same. If upper and lower bar angles are the same, spring load washes out. It also doesn't matter once you reach full hike.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer
With all those assumptions, it would be the same. If upper and lower bar angles are the same, spring load washes out. It also doesn't matter once you reach full hike.
I think this is key (bold), which is rare unless both bars are equal length and same angle. Since most aren't, the spring load may cause load on bars to vary thus affect the true thrust angle the cage see's and effects car. Since the upper bar typically has more angle then the upper, removing thrust/load from the dominate bar, should change the actual thrust not the calculated thrust.
Again this may be so slight or minimal and vary with bar load vs spring load, that it may make no to little difference.
My favorite phrase is: Everything in racing is a compromise. There generally isn't a perfect solution to anything as you are going to compromise on something for cost, ease, or to lean one direction on something.
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