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If you've ever been to any of the big passing crate races and hung around after. You would know the top three engines usually get tore completely down and every measurement checked and if it doesent have gm deals it must meet every spec. The area that page got disqualified for is very easy to be illegal in and not from trying to cheat. If i remember correctly they dont have a installed height number but a seat pressure number.i think it's somthing like 110# if your over, your illegal. I have seen spring checkers vary and i have also seen the plate on the checker come loose allowing a little flex yeilding a lower number. We're talking about a number that .010"-.020" installed height change can easily push you over the limit. While i agree this is a easy area to cheat in is a really easy area to get caught in aswell. I doubt he intentionally cheated he may have attempted to push it to the very upper limit and rightfully so. Jmo
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Originally Posted by EvelB7
I prefer that as well, however the crate class has also allowed quite a few guys to keep racing (I am one). I would much rather bolt a 900 horsepower engine down between the frame rails, just can't afford it. I ran with CrateRacin' USA for a couple of years, they kept everyone honest (at least at that time).
We just bolt in a steel block $8k engine and do the best we can. Lol. Pick your battles.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
Florence -3
Atomic - 2
Moler - 1
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For those not familiar with checking that valve spring install hieght, this is how it's done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAK-SDr0qP0
Now, who knows who checked or set it on pages engine, but it NOT that easy to miss the number if you are using a proper install hieght mic like shown in video or are just flat pushing the height to the limit. Now if you're using a scale/ruler or dial calipers then YES it's easy to miss by .020 but why would you check and set it without the proper tools?
Last edited by billetbirdcage; 01-19-2021 at 10:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by billetbirdcage
For those not familiar with checking that valve spring install hieght, this is how it's done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAK-SDr0qP0Now, who knows who checked or set it on pages engine, but it NOT that easy to miss the number if you are using a proper install hieght mic like shown in video or are just flat pushing the height to the limit. Now if you're using a scale/ruler or dial calipers then YES it's easy to miss by .020 but why would you check and set it without the proper tools?
While i agree with your statement im not suggesting sombody read the mic wrong I'm suggesting that the desired install height created to much seat pressure deaming him illegal. I did not watch the video but that is only one of the tools involved in setting valve springs correctly
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Originally Posted by Jking24
While i agree with your statement im not suggesting sombody read the mic wrong I'm suggesting that the desired install height created to much seat pressure deaming him illegal. I did not watch the video but that is only one of the tools involved in setting valve springs correctly
Seat pressure is less easy to check. Are the rules not based on install height only? I thought it was? And that's why people buy a bunch of springs to cherry pick.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
Florence -3
Atomic - 2
Moler - 1
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Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer
We just bolt in a steel block $8k engine and do the best we can. Lol. Pick your battles.
Cars these days are so close it is hard to give up engine. I ran supers for over 20 years, our budget was small but we could at least make the big shows. Since that time technology has made it harder and harder for the team to be able to do this, however it has also created some very tough fields for those that can afford it. Nature of the beast really, can't stop progress (although you have to wonder if it is really progress when you look at car counts). But enough, I also agree that Page's infraction was most likely an error or wear and not intentional.
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Originally Posted by EvelB7
Cars these days are so close it is hard to give up engine. I ran supers for over 20 years, our budget was small but we could at least make the big shows. Since that time technology has made it harder and harder for the team to be able to do this, however it has also created some very tough fields for those that can afford it. Nature of the beast really, can't stop progress (although you have to wonder if it is really progress when you look at car counts). But enough, I also agree that Page's infraction was most likely an error or wear and not intentional.
I'm ok running where we can run decent. I don't have to run Lucas shows.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
Florence -3
Atomic - 2
Moler - 1
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Originally Posted by Jking24
While i agree with your statement im not suggesting sombody read the mic wrong I'm suggesting that the desired install height created to much seat pressure deaming him illegal. I did not watch the video but that is only one of the tools involved in setting valve springs correctly
I'm only going off what was posted that the install height was incorrect. I know what your saying that the pressure may been too high and the install height was correct, but what was said here was the "install hieght was wrong" (not sure if that was the case, just going off what was posted)
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Originally Posted by billetbirdcage
I'm only going off what was posted that the install height was incorrect. I know what your saying that the pressure may been too high and the install height was correct, but what was said here was the "install hieght was wrong" (not sure if that was the case, just going off what was posted)
Is that possible, with legal springs?
That said, Crate Racin's own press release said install height. But, I've seen mistakes made in print before.
Last edited by MasterSbilt_Racer; 01-19-2021 at 11:16 AM.
Modern Day Wedge Racing
Florence -3
Atomic - 2
Moler - 1
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Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer
Is that possible, with legal springs?
I'm pulling numbers out of my arse, too lazy to look up the correct numbers
The install hieght is spec'ed like at 1.78 +/- a certain amount like .020
The spring pressure has a max pressure of like 110#
So while possible that a spring is out of spec and has 115# at the 1.76 to 1.8 install height allowed, it's not very common. They know the range of the springs and have rules set so it doesn't happen often, but it is possible. The pressure rule is more for non stock springs and springs that look just like the stock ones but are slightly stiffer. Many of those have real similar seat pressures but the open pressure is higher and hard to check without pulling spring off head to check the full range of the spring not just the on head test for seat pressure with a pull type on head spring checker.
Again, just going off the report/post why he was D/Q'ed it seems he was out of spec on the install height, I didn't see anything posted about pressure. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus but if it was indeed a install hieght only infraction, then that was done by someone not taking the time to do it right or didn't have the proper tools to set it correctly. Also not saying it was done on purpose either, could been a mistake, but with things like that I would figure a decent team doesn't make mistakes like that, when it's one of the first things checked
Last edited by billetbirdcage; 01-19-2021 at 11:26 AM.
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This is the type of violation where i have a very hard time believing it was intentional just because you have to know they're going to check that.
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The reason I was thinking someone made a mistake was I had heard from someone there that only one spring checked wrong.
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They’re saying they removed a specific amount of shims (washers?), but accidentally left one too many in.
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So curiosity was killing the cat here. So i looked it up the valves are allowed to be shimmed a maximum of .020" to get seat pressure back after valve seat machining during a rebuild the seat pressure is 101# plus or minus 4# so basically 105#. If one takes the press release for its literal wording than it's must have measured wrong. But the two are directly related so if you told a engine guy your seat pressure was wrong he would tell you thats because your installed height is wrong. So to say the installed height is wrong could be interpreted as it's actually wrong or the spring pressure is incorrect since it is what controls that spec. Not trying to argue with anyone just thinking out loud
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Whats kinda strange, he won the big crate race at Cochran just a couple months ago! Did they not check it then or was this a new motor?
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Originally Posted by ZERO25
Whats kinda strange, he won the big crate race at Cochran just a couple months ago! Did they not check it then or was this a new motor?
It was checked.And.was good, not sure but heard it was same motor just had it gone through.
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Originally Posted by billetbirdcage
I'm pulling numbers out of my arse, too lazy to look up the correct numbers
The install hieght is spec'ed like at 1.78 +/- a certain amount like .020
The spring pressure has a max pressure of like 110#
So while possible that a spring is out of spec and has 115# at the 1.76 to 1.8 install height allowed, it's not very common. They know the range of the springs and have rules set so it doesn't happen often, but it is possible. The pressure rule is more for non stock springs and springs that look just like the stock ones but are slightly stiffer. Many of those have real similar seat pressures but the open pressure is higher and hard to check without pulling spring off head to check the full range of the spring not just the on head test for seat pressure with a pull type on head spring checker.
Again, just going off the report/post why he was D/Q'ed it seems he was out of spec on the install height, I didn't see anything posted about pressure. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus but if it was indeed a install hieght only infraction, then that was done by someone not taking the time to do it right or didn't have the proper tools to set it correctly. Also not saying it was done on purpose either, could been a mistake, but with things like that I would figure a decent team doesn't make mistakes like that, when it's one of the first things checked
springs out of spec are more common than you think with these cheaper springs , thats why builders like Brad go through a bunch of springs just to get a set like they want that will comply with tech , i have bought a lot of the throw away,s from a local builder for half price that under normal applications were fine , this is the problem with a crate engines , if you want the very best LEGAL engine , you have to pay the piper .......
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Originally Posted by fastford
springs out of spec are more common than you think with these cheaper springs , thats why builders like Brad go through a bunch of springs just to get a set like they want that will comply with tech , i have bought a lot of the throw away,s from a local builder for half price that under normal applications were fine , this is the problem with a crate engines , if you want the very best LEGAL engine , you have to pay the piper .......
I've spent 2 full days on the Spintron for the 604, if you want to believe that the 5 or even 10# variance you see in springs makes a difference. . . . shrugs.
Most people would be shocked to what has an effect and what doesn't
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It amazing that would be such a big advantage in such an old car. People are constantly talking about new cars being faster, and the fact that even new Mastersbilt aren't faster makes it more amazing one 10+ years old crossed the line before a new XR1. There was an article in Dirt Late Model Magazine about Page years ago and one of his sponsors talking about how he was one of the few drivers left who could cut the front clip off the car and rework it all by himself. I wonder it Tader knows about the mods Page has made to that chassis.
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Originally Posted by 84wedge
It amazing that would be such a big advantage in such an old car. People are constantly talking about new cars being faster, and the fact that even new Mastersbilt aren't faster makes it more amazing one 10+ years old crossed the line before a new XR1. There was an article in Dirt Late Model Magazine about Page years ago and one of his sponsors talking about how he was one of the few drivers left who could cut the front clip off the car and rework it all by himself. I wonder it Tader knows about the mods Page has made to that chassis.
Not knocking anything Paige has done but just because it's a good crate car doesent mean it can compete with an open motor in it. Most guys in crates get caught up chasing the newer setups and their car couldn't spin a tire with the old stuff so alot of it is all for nothing.
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