FASTRAK, your thoughts to help the 602

FASTRAKPR · #1 11-02-2009, 11:57 PM

FASTRAK finally had a suggestion from one of our teams, one that acutally runs a 604 by the way, that might actually be something we could consider implementing that would help the teams with 602's.

The dilema: 602 2250lbs- 604 2400lbs is the current weight rule.

We are told you can't take more weight off the 602's. Can't get the percentages. You can put more weight on the 604'2. Some people having to put on 200 lbs now.

Question: Give the 602 a 8 inch engine set back versus the current 6 inch. Keep the 604 at 6 inches.

Your thoughts?

Racerkid_16 · #2 11-03-2009, 12:19 AM

I would just give the 602 a bigger spoiler. If I am not mistaken didn't at one time some tracks let the 602s run a bigger spoiler?

Friar Tire · #3 11-03-2009, 01:39 AM

More rear percentage by way of weight redistribution or increased spoiler would work if the 602s in your area have a problem frying the tires.
Most places the 602 doesn't have a traction problem. Neither does the 604.

By who's math does a 150 lbs. weight break make the two equal?

Here is my math:
2400 lbs. divided by 400hp = 6 lbs/ hp
2100 lbs. divided by 350hp = 6 lbs/ hp

The 2400 lbs. car may still have the advantage if it has better weight distribution.

hanginitout · #4 11-03-2009, 07:32 AM

That is good that you realize they need help. But why make the 602 guy's spend money on the drive shaft,and motor mounts and maybe some chassis modification, to move the motor back just add the wieght to them 604's by the heads and maybe a nose wing on the 602's, and these make a difference taller sides on the spoiler , That might be just as good and more cost effective, jmo

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTRAKPR

FASTRAK finally had a suggestion from one of our teams, one that acutally runs a 604 by the way, that might actually be something we could consider implementing that would help the teams with 602's.

The dilema: 602 2250lbs- 604 2400lbs is the current weight rule.

We are told you can't take more weight off the 602's. Can't get the percentages. You can put more weight on the 604'2. Some people having to put on 200 lbs now.

Question: Give the 602 a 8 inch engine set back versus the current 6 inch. Keep the 604 at 6 inches.

Your thoughts?

smsm · #5 11-03-2009, 09:55 AM

How many 602's are left out there? How many are not racing because they feel a 602 is not competive? We don't more rules on the 604's to keep them from moving around. On another note, what is the tire situation?

mqdirtracer57 · #6 11-03-2009, 11:23 AM

604 cars put 50 pounds at motor plate.(high in the car as if it where cylinder heads)I feel there should also be a weight penalty for RM bolts.ADD 50-100 more pounds for RM bolts

$$UMPMOD$$ · #7 11-03-2009, 12:14 PM

I don't know much about crates, what is the difference between a 602 and a 604? if one is the advantage why would you run the other?

JOEL77 · #8 11-03-2009, 12:42 PM

I had the option to run my crate motor at 8" with another series that I was running. It cost me several hundred dollars for the drive shaft, motor mounts, shifter linkages, etc. Plus several hours fabricating spacers for the midplate. After I got all this work done, I did the calculations to see what I was gaining in rear precentage. It wasn't enough to justify the parts and work.

The next problem was that whenever I wanted to run any other series, I was illeagal. I decided it wasn't worth it. The drive shaft and motor mounts are in my building taking up space now.

Chris Steele · #9 11-03-2009, 01:54 PM

Engine set back is waaaaaay more trouble than it's worth, plus like the others have said on here it's illegal anywhere else. The 604 guys adding 50 lbs on front (two 25lb blocks for total 2450) can be easily removed to run other series'. Cherokee Speedway allowed the 12" spoiler and side blades on the 602 before (maybe still do, not sure) and I put one 12" side blade on the lr of my car one night and it was sooo tight I couldn't drive it. By the time you add spoiler, free the car up to get it back driveable your back where you started in the first place. Someone mentioned tires, if you make the 604 guys use 50 RR and 602 45 right rear...what happens at a hard abrasive track where you need a 50 rr anyway? You are still right back at the same disadvantage. The front spoiler piece Fastrak made for the super late model car is a thought, but might only work if your gonna allow the 12 rear spoiler. I am willing to participate in testing if need be. The front piece can be easily removed to go run another series, but most other series' will follow Fastrak's lead as they have in the past anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOEL77

I had the option to run my crate motor at 8" with another series that I was running. It cost me several hundred dollars for the drive shaft, motor mounts, shifter linkages, etc. Plus several hours fabricating spacers for the midplate. After I got all this work done, I did the calculations to see what I was gaining in rear precentage. It wasn't enough to justify the parts and work.

The next problem was that whenever I wanted to run any other series, I was illeagal. I decided it wasn't worth it. The drive shaft and motor mounts are in my building taking up space now.

TRocket8 · #10 11-03-2009, 02:19 PM

Cut the 604 Spoiler's to 6 inches, it would be a lot easier to do it this way than give the 602 the 12 inch spoiler. The 602 really doesn't need anymore rear downforce. I have ran with a 12 inch spoiler with the 602, I would think when the track got heavy, it would be almost impossible to turn these cars.

Engine setback would be a pain in the ass.

I like Chris's ideal of adding the 2 25 pounds of lead to there cars.

Get rid of the fuel burn off rule, that where 602 suffers in long races as the 604 can go down to the limit closer than the 602.

Tommy Schirnhofer

Mud Dobber · #11 11-04-2009, 10:57 PM

I agree with Chris, 50 lbs in the front of the 604's. I run a 602 and people say that we should buy a 604 instead of complaining but with the $2200 that I saved I was able to buy tires, rims, carb, headers and a few other things that I had to have to race. If money was not a problem I would have bought a 604 but it is and I hope that Stan can tell that there is a problem and address it. Chris is a great driver and puts on a heck of a show with the 602. I hope next year that there will be more 602's trying to get into the shows. The 602's are still at 355hp but after the changes to the 604's most are telling me that from factory they are around 425hp. If this is correct the gap is gradually increasing!

hanginitout · #12 11-05-2009, 07:27 AM

How about after rebuild? and blueprint a balanced? 604'S then how much horse power gain in there? They are forgetting about that.

j20000 · #13 11-05-2009, 09:29 AM

I race at Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Motor Speedway, and while it's not a Fastrak sanctioned track (it's a DirtCar track) our rules there are that the 604 must weight 2400lbs, and have an 8" spoiler, no more than 6" high, measured off of the deck. The 602's must be 2250lbs with an 8" spoiler, and it can be straight up if you want. The 602's won more races there this year than the 604's did I think...and the racing between the two are VERY competitive.

That being said...PPMS is a big momentum track as compared to some of the smaller tracks where the difference in spoiler may not make as much of a difference.

I've run both a 602 and 604 there, and the 602 is VERY capable of winning with these rules. The 602 is tough to get down to the 2250lb weight however, and still keep your %'s. When I had the 602, my car weighed 2370 with me in the car (215lbs)and 20 gallons of fuel, but we were still able to run up front at that weight.

On the other end, when I had the 602, it wasn't as capable of holding it's own on a shorter, tackier track as the 604 is.

Just a thought....

SWARTZ ME · #14 11-06-2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Steele

Engine set back is waaaaaay more trouble than it's worth, plus like the others have said on here it's illegal anywhere else. The 604 guys adding 50 lbs on front (two 25lb blocks for total 2450) can be easily removed to run other series'. Cherokee Speedway allowed the 12" spoiler and side blades on the 602 before (maybe still do, not sure) and I put one 12" side blade on the lr of my car one night and it was sooo tight I couldn't drive it. By the time you add spoiler, free the car up to get it back driveable your back where you started in the first place. Someone mentioned tires, if you make the 604 guys use 50 RR and 602 45 right rear...what happens at a hard abrasive track where you need a 50 rr anyway? You are still right back at the same disadvantage. The front spoiler piece Fastrak made for the super late model car is a thought, but might only work if your gonna allow the 12 rear spoiler. I am willing to participate in testing if need be. The front piece can be easily removed to go run another series, but most other series' will follow Fastrak's lead as they have in the past anyway.

I have both motors now that I have 602 I hate to give Chris any advantage LOL. this is what I lobbied for since the beginning the 604 need to put more weight on and some in the front on each side at head height , but then we go back to fuel burn off on a long race we lose rear percentage . I don't know enough about the noses I would soon go to a nose that is not like wedge and more like the older noses that we use to use. and I am for anything that will get the guy in to the crates $3000 is easier to come with then $5000 that is how I first start in this class that was all i had . it was either sit the season out because it was not enough to fix the spec or the open motor. if this will get more drivers in crate latemodels I am all for it.

rathole7 · #15 11-06-2009, 03:33 PM

how about have a couple races a year with 602's only? or maybe an economy class with only 602"s

mqdirtracer57 · #16 11-06-2009, 03:34 PM

Not a bad suggestion from Rathole7!

bulletB · #17 11-09-2009, 09:00 AM

What if you allowed a different ratio rocker arm? How much would that change the power output of the 602? It would not be " inside the bolts", or maybe different valve springs, to bring up the performance a little instead of adding weight to make the 604s handle worse. These things are tricky enough to get handling really good without putting weight where it screws up the percentages already. I say bring the performance of the 602s up instead of slowing down the 604s.

DV8 · #18 11-09-2009, 01:02 PM

No, I think changing parts on the 602 is a bad idea. We bought a 602 because it was affordable, we don’t want to spend money on new parts which would make us illegal in another series. This also applies to engine set back.

Over the past few years I think the specs on a 602 have remained the same, while the 604s’ performance has improved. Discounting the “special” rebuilds available to the 604s. The dyno tests that were performed 4 or 5 years ago which had the 602 at 350hp and the 604 at 400hp should be performed again. Use fresh engines just off the line, and test them with pump, racing and E85 fuels. I believe any torque advantage the 602 had has been nullified by E85.

As to evening the playing field. Chris and the others are right; add 50 pounds, 25 on each side of the engine at head level. It is a simple fix; the weight can be placed on the roll cage, the only hassle would be finding two 25 pound pieces of lead around the shop. Sure, the 604 guys will cry about the weight and percentages but at least they can move the lead forward or back as long at it remained within the dimensions of the head.

Speaking of crying about percentages, I’d like to see the weight of the 602s increased to 2250, but this would put the 604s with the suggestion above at 2450. As a racer I know that is just too much lead to hang on one of these cars.

The other suggestion is a 602 only series, a very good idea. Pay this series less and hopefully you’ll avoid the asshats who have given the series a black eye with the rampant cheating. Perhaps you’ll bring the people that left because of the cheating back. I have taken to running with sportsmen cars simply to avoid racing against cheated up 604s.

Bottom line is that the 602s need some help, I’m glad the fact has finally reached upper management.

thatpartsguy · #19 11-09-2009, 01:22 PM

just make the 604's add some more weight. I do not think making a 602 only class is the greatest idea. We are running the fastrak series next year but the only reason we are running a 602 is because 2 of our local tracks that run crates have a 602 only class. So we are keeping our 602 in order to run local some weeks as well as travel.

Chris Steele · #20 11-09-2009, 02:07 PM

DV8, the 602 already has to weigh 2250lbs, except in big races where you get 1lb per lap burn off. I would not recommend adding 50 more lbs to the 602 either, only add it to the front of the 604 cars to equal the front weight we already have. If the chance ever comes to get lighter weight parts whether it be rotors, hubs etc. then you have penalized yourself by making it 2300 on the 602 and we have not accomplished anything. I still think 50 lbs to the front of the 604 is a start...two 25lb pieces beside the heads. Set back, rockers and some other things listed are only going to hurt us from going other places to race.