Crate car vs super late model handling

[lpd1]

hi everyone, i have been doing some thinking and was wanting to see if i could get some feed back and your thoughts on my issue. i run both super lates and big crate races. and with my super late model motor i can run all night and make very little chassis changes if any. i can go back with me crate car and i cant seem to get off the corner to save my life, i cant put the gas down untill down the straight with the crate motor, which dont make sense to me and i run the same tires for the most part.

[zeke23z]

Try moving the 5th coil back towards the rear end,what changes do you make going from super to crate?

[Egoracing]

The super engine generates a lot of torque that the crate does not. This additional torque helps add traction, this missing in the crate makes the crate buzz the tires. Sounds odd that the crate busts the tires loose when the super don't if you only look at the setup side but makes sense when you think about the engine side of the equation.

[DLM06]

The super engine generates a lot of torque that the crate does not. This additional torque helps add traction, this missing in the crate makes the crate buzz the tires. Sounds odd that the crate busts the tires loose when the super don't if you only look at the setup side but makes sense when you think about the engine side of the equation.

This sounds exactly opposite. Can you explain how that can be??

[hucktyson]

The super engine generates a lot of torque that the crate does not. This additional torque helps add traction, this missing in the crate makes the crate buzz the tires. Sounds odd that the crate busts the tires loose when the super don't if you only look at the setup side but makes sense when you think about the engine side of the equation.

Your smoking crack !!! I've driven 875 hp as well as 475 on all track conditions , the 475 you hold matted and it just goes , the 875 you work quarter throttle the whole time and if you push 1/16" too far it breaks loose...

[Egoracing]

This sounds exactly opposite. Can you explain how that can be??

I do not understand how it would be opposite, it is a fact that a super generates MUCH more torque than a crate. This torque generates is own traction my loading the lr tire all on its own. Look at a drag racing car. 2 cars on the same tire and same suspension same hp, A small engine car with a turbo may slightly lift the LF suspension but a big motor will have the LF off of the ground and the LR is loaded more than the small motor even though they ran the same ET. That LR loading is caused by the torque of the engine and supplemented by traction available, more weight on a tire the more traction is has to a point. In a dirt late model that added down force increases available traction at the LR tire which is the drive tire. The added torque also starts the loading of the suspension more than the small motor. That torque and suspension loading add traction. Another example is start the car and quickly rev the engine with the car not in gear, a crate will hardly move the car while the super motor will rock the car with torque even without any drive train resistance.

[Egoracing]

Your smoking crack !!! I've driven 875 hp as well as 475 on all track conditions , the 475 you hold matted and it just goes , the 875 you work quarter throttle the whole time and if you push 1/16" too far it breaks loose...

I am not talking about a track where you can keep it flat foot and the original poster clearly can not either. Also your setup may not be relying on the engine to gain traction where his may be.

[hpmaster]

This is second hand but it is from a guy who is in our state hall of fame and has won around 500 features including 10 or 15 this past year. He runs his car with both a big open motor and a 604 crate on very dry slick tracks. He told me it takes two completely different driving styles to make both work more so than set up. Second hand but from a very straight up guy.

[andy16]

well are your percentages staying the same? mainly rear %. the crate w a steel block may weigh more the super motor without knowing what u have? i think you may need to change your setup for what ego is saying, the cars loading of tires will be different from one to the other alot more thrust from a super? i had a shock guy rebuild my shocks and he asked me all about my car and driving style and he asked what class i planned on running i said sometimes super sometimes limited. he said well the shock packages are alot different from one to the other and setups slightly. he proved to me that you cant just swap motors and go and expect to run well. i dont know what to change but he was pretty convincing that it was a bad idea

[dylchris]

Ego, I always see where you are coming from,but making the blanket statement about torque is not necessarrily true IMO,. torque is accelleration and the very force that breaks tires free as well.

I think it is set-up, and driving style, the lower the horsepower the free-er the set-up, Crate racing is momentum racing so anything that requires the car to stop and go or lose momentum is going to present opportunity for wheel spin.

[grt74]

let me see if i can put it in simple terms,super cars you have to slow everything down(hike up and instant traction)crates you need to speed it up(quicker instant traction and hike up)we run both,the super has a little different shoch package,bite,and 5th coil setup than the crate(to traction the car up)but everything else is pretty close other than that
the crate doesnt have the power to get up on the bars as quick

[Egoracing]

the crate doesnt have the power to get up on the bars as quick

This is the torque difference that I was talking about. The ability of the engine to help traction.

[ALF401]

This is the torque difference that I was talking about. The ability of the engine to help traction.

If the torque is the big thing, why did everyone quit running alcohol for fuel???

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If the torque is the big thing, why did everyone quit running alcohol for fuel???

Excessive weight change from fuel burnoff. Torque isn't everything.

[chasingthatedge]

crate cars have to be set up alittle free....they don't have the power to really get up on bars quick...it does take a diff driving style....crate cars need to keep momentum up.....you need to change a good bit when swapping from alum open motor with dry sump to a crate motor....weight transfer is diff from the weight placement as well as it happens slower.....hope this helps....if you think about how the weight moves and then make changes it will make sense

[dualdj1]

I keep seeing everyone saying it's a different driving style, etc... That's not completely accurate. ALL dirt racing is about momentum and being able to push your car to the limit of traction, without going over. You can go in way to hard on a super and scrub off a ton of speed, and you're gonna lose. The real difference, is that with a crate your edge of traction is different, and you can't overcome losing momentum as easily. But momentum is no less important in super than crate, especially in the slick.

Certain bad driving styles are just more apparent in certain classes, because they don't have the right crutches to overcome their deficiencies.

[chasingthatedge]

I keep seeing everyone saying it's a different driving style, etc... That's not completely accurate. ALL dirt racing is about momentum and being able to push your car to the limit of traction, without going over. You can go in way to hard on a super and scrub off a ton of speed, and you're gonna lose. The real difference, is that with a crate your edge of traction is different, and you can't overcome losing momentum as easily. But momentum is no less important in super than crate, especially in the slick. Certain bad driving styles are just more apparent in certain classes, because they don't have the right crutches to overcome their deficiencies.

i agree with you dualdj1...i guess the way i worded it was wrong.....just that most super drivers , run their cars in so hard and lose their momentum on the dryslick tracks it looks stop and go....the crate cars can't overcome that same type thinking easily.....now the really good and smooth super drivers adapt to a crate well...where as one that throws car and loses momentum will have trouble in a crate...that is what i was saying about diff driving style....

[dualdj1]

i agree with you dualdj1...i guess the way i worded it was wrong.....just that most super drivers , run their cars in so hard and lose their momentum on the dryslick tracks it looks stop and go....the crate cars can't overcome that same type thinking easily.....now the really good and smooth super drivers adapt to a crate well...where as one that throws car and loses momentum will have trouble in a crate...that is what i was saying about diff driving style....

yep for sure. wasn't trying to argue or anything, just clarify a little. And really, what it amounts to, is that super drivers that aren't great in slick, could get better by driving crate for a while.