Belleville High Banks TOO FAST

[LateModel B23]

Cost too much now days to run that style of track. They are reopening a half mile in my hometown and its "Historic" but i'm not going to race unless they shorten it. The cost to run big tracks is just to great on the motors, and when you wreck you destroy a car. Risk vs Reward some look at it different but budget guys have to weigh it all out.

Is that the old track in town in Muskogee?

[zach51]

Is that the old track in town in Muskogee?

Yeah I'm sure that's the one he is referring to. It was the fairgrounds track. Huge. Flat. I saw a MARS race there 5 years ago or so and I think Will Vaught won both nights, but the racing wasn't very good. Just too big. It was reopened as "Thunderbird" a few years back then closed again, now opening again. The old Outlaw Motor Speedway track was one of the nicest places around but can never overcome seemingly perpetual incompetence in the management.

[3 wide]

Well they got a 10k Ray cook race later in the summer at tazwell will see what it draws also they draw a tremendous crowd in a small town area just goes to show great racing draws big crowds that is what I keep saying better work your race track put on a show and run on time.

[powerslide]

Is that the old track in town in Muskogee?

Yeah they are dumping a good amount of money into it this time it seems. They are ordering LED lighting and doing a lot of work around the place. Hope it works out for them. Just can't see it lasting as a half mile. OKC car count was awesome when they had the 3/8 inside of the half mile. Cars just go so much faster now days.

[JimBo]

Muskogee is a great historic track but the fact is the cars are to fast these days to put on a good show there. I first attended a race there back in the late 60's with my Dad when most Late Models were 55-57 Chevys. I also have been to most all of the MARS races there. The track is flat, narrow and just does not promote good racing with today's cars. I hope they shorten it to 3/8.

[RCJ]

I timed Moyer and Fry at 19.38 on a locked down track in the early 90s.A couple of years ago I TIMED Moyer and Stoval at 19.28 in the rubber.Both at Muskogee.I would have thought that the gains in motors would have made a bigger difference than that.Are the cars really that much faster today?I time Jeremy Payne at a faster time on a heavy track,with no tire checking.

[LeafMaster41]

Some things never change....

I timed Moyer and Fry at 19.38 on a locked down track in the early 90s.A couple of years ago I TIMED Moyer and Stoval at 19.28 in the rubber.Both at Muskogee.I would have thought that the gains in motors would have made a bigger difference than that.Are the cars really that much faster today?I time Jeremy Payne at a faster time on a heavy track,with no tire checking.

Some will argue that the new cars are faster in the, "Dry Slick" to me they are just uglier and more expensive to make go as fast. When 4 link first became all the rage in the mid 90's the leaf cars were suppose to be dead and gone, but a friend of mine outran all the HAT regulars on 2 nights back to back at different tracks with a leaf/coil Mastersbilt. Then when the "On The Hook" setup hit big and was suppose to be unbeatable I had another friend in a traditional 4 link skin the "On The Hook" cars on multiple occasion's with a homebuilt steel block 358... I'll get blasted for saying all this, like I have many times, but its the truth. The physics don't change, only how we attempt to manipulate them. It's still 4 tires touching the ground, #2300 and the cars still work in an "X", the rest is just different degrees of alignment/misalignment and load.

[Illtsate32]

As far as weight transfer weight%, 4 link, 5th coil the more things change the more they stay the same...on the other hand I think shock technology is where extreme advancement has been made... Ive seen 3 link modifieds with a solid pull bar dust 4 link mods with 3-4 way pull bars and 5th coils...

[LeafMaster41]

As far as weight transfer weight%, 4 link, 5th coil the more things change the more they stay the same...on the other hand I think shock technology is where extreme advancement has been made... Ive seen 3 link modifieds with a solid pull bar dust 4 link mods with 3-4 way pull bars and 5th coils...

You are exactly right. Kudo's.

[westlingracing]

I ran Belleville in the 90s with a Rayburn leaf car and in the 2006-8 with a 4 bar Pierce car. And we were faster with the Rayburn according to our records. The Rayburn Leaf car was so much more stable than the 4 bar car you could relax a bit. Figuring top speed by gear and tire size we topped out around 140 with the leaf car and 130 with the 4bar. Never was in contention but had a 15th place finish with the Rayburn. The 3 runs with the Pierce broke motors! And on top of breaking stuff was a nervous wreck! The car was just not stable at the speeds at that place. I have ran big tracks before, Eldora, Missouri state fair, Moberly Mo., Lebanon Mo., the old Granite City Il. Track, , And back when Denver had a half mile. Even a sand covered 5/8 in Holyoke Co. And none of them Compares to Belleville! The high banking and being round is just crazy! I never forget the 1st laps there and noticed numbers written on the walls so you would know which corner you were in, if it wasn't round. Lol

[powerslide]

When I talk about going faster I'm meaning further back before late models became Camaro's with slab sided bodies and huge spoilers/noses. I watched a late model race from the 70-80's on youtube the other day and it looked like a freakin endure or pure stock race of today...

All this was really before my time really, but when they were building these large tracks the cars were much slower, a SBC wasn't even a thing. I can believe the speed from the carrying the LF days aren't that much off from the cars of today, if you have some times before the wedge cars came about I bet they have made some pretty big strides.

From what I gather the track records fell when the wedge cars came about and up until the last 5 years they held pretty strong.

As far as Muskogee goes its always been fast and if you wrecked you usually had a couple days on the frame machine or needed a new car.

[LeafMaster41]

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it...

When I talk about going faster I'm meaning further back before late models became Camaro's with slab sided bodies and huge spoilers/noses. I watched a late model race from the 70-80's on youtube the other day and it looked like a freakin endure or pure stock race of today...

All this was really before my time really, but when they were building these large tracks the cars were much slower, a SBC wasn't even a thing. I can believe the speed from the carrying the LF days aren't that much off from the cars of today, if you have some times before the wedge cars came about I bet they have made some pretty big strides.

From what I gather the track records fell when the wedge cars came about and up until the last 5 years they held pretty strong.

As far as Muskogee goes its always been fast and if you wrecked you usually had a couple days on the frame machine or needed a new car.

There was a time in between, "Carrying LF" time and Wedge cars, from 85'-98' that is referred to as the small body cars. The wedge cars, like todays cars developed so much downforce that bigger HP became essential because the cars were glued to the track. Engine costs and stupid light frames became all the rage. Titanium lower ends started showing up and the cost escalation pushed a lot of folks out of late model all together, some regions of the country have never been the same. Seeing what was happening they outlawed the wedge bodies and took away the aero, implemented a small body set of rules and the racers came back. Within a few years DLM was growing by leaps and bounds, multi-car teams sprang up and there was an entire spectrum of suspension designs being tried, it was a great time. Once Skip Arp and Joe Garrison started developing the LR shock/spring behind setup known as, "Being On The hook" the trend towards needing more HP returned but gains have leveled off, so in the last 5 years everyone has shifted more towards aero and to me that is a bad thing for your average blue collar racer. Add in sanctions that look the other way on body rules and let the nose manufacturer dictate to them what's being run every year and things can get ugly real quick for average Joe Racer. Sorry, got on my soapbox. I'm done.

[westlingracing]

Yep need to get back to the rules right after the elimination of the wedge cars. Totally agree with it!! The cars might look ugly but the racing was good, and a guy with limited funds could compete with the high $$$ guys. My first year my Rayburn was called a wide car with full wedge body. The next year the rules made us go to the ugly plastic camaro nose. Ugly but it effectively slowed the cars down. And had way more side by side racing.