Vado

[Raceready]

Thanks  I need to get out there. Looks like a great track.

Had you made it there yet ? Looked like J.D. and Bobby held down the front tonight ? ?

[fastford]

The aero was taken away in the 80s. Can be again. Shocks don't scare me at all. They can only do so much (build resistance based on shock velocity) and the quality has been good for years. I can ask a good shock guy to do whatever I need.

There's plenty of things that are maybe "shock-like" that can be done. I have the knowledge to do it, but not the time to test it.

As Ive said before, aero isn't cheap. My engines that used to be good enough are not now. The toll on engines is why the wedge was killed. It doesn't stop at the engine either. Every component experiences more stress with all the load on the car and drive train.

in the 90,s a weaker spec engine was given a 12 inch spoiler and a weight break , the average engine cost 10 grand and could win a race every now and then in the slick , the spoiler was taken away and the cheaper engine became irrelevant , cost of racing engine wise went up , this is just one example where taking this simple cheap aero away increased cost , we can argue this point till the cows come home , but I still say aero is the cheapest speed out there , maybe not in the beginning with the expense of research , but now any decent body builder can duplicate todays bodies with on problem ......

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

in the 90,s a weaker spec engine was given a 12 inch spoiler and a weight break , the average engine cost 10 grand and could win a race every now and then in the slick , the spoiler was taken away and the cheaper engine became irrelevant , cost of racing engine wise went up , this is just one example where taking this simple cheap aero away increased cost , we can argue this point till the cows come home , but I still say aero is the cheapest speed out there , maybe not in the beginning with the expense of research , but now any decent body builder can duplicate todays bodies with on problem ......

You are taking an example that doesn't apply to super racing in most places. Actually, it proves my point. Bigger spoiler added traction.

If you are using the same engine and your car is more hooked up, racing costs more, period. A car can only have some much grip with the weight it has. No matter how impressive your suspension is, it is ultimately limited by the load on the tires. You use air to add load, now everything works harder and you need more horsepower. It's simple physics.

Air is only cheap when you do something no one else is, so you gain an advantage on them. Once everyone is doing it, now it's very expensive.

[EvelB7]

Bottom line is Aero creates poor racing, forget the costs. Same people will win, but the shows will be better if you create more 'off throttle' time for the drivers. As I type this I am actually on my way to start installing new decking, had to cut out shock mount and replace; also had to lower the fuel cell to gain another two inches of rake for the almighty aero. It would be painful but the aero does need put back in the box...

[fastford]

Bottom line is Aero creates poor racing, forget the costs. Same people will win, but the shows will be better if you create more 'off throttle' time for the drivers. As I type this I am actually on my way to start installing new decking, had to cut out shock mount and replace; also had to lower the fuel cell to gain another two inches of rake for the almighty aero. It would be painful but the aero does need put back in the box...

I agree , but you are proving my point as well , by doing it yourself , your able to do this because some one else paid the price for the research and passed it on to folks like us , MSB says he can rebuild or have some one rebuild his shocks , and I,m all for that , but the front runners are not rebuilding old wore out shocks , there buying the newest and best shocks out there for an ungodly amount of money and will prevail , lets say you do away with aero , mandate steel oil shocks and bring back the old ec3 tires for every one to run on , do you think that would produce better racing ????

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I agree , but you are proving my point as well , by doing it yourself , your able to do this because some one else paid the price for the research and passed it on to folks like us , MSB says he can rebuild or have some one rebuild his shocks , and I,m all for that , but the front runners are not rebuilding old wore out shocks , there buying the newest and best shocks out there for an ungodly amount of money and will prevail , lets say you do away with aero , mandate steel oil shocks and bring back the old ec3 tires for every one to run on , do you think that would produce better racing ????

My original ohlins are giving up nothing to anything anyone else has.

[fastford]

My original ohlins are giving up nothing to anything anyone else has.

dont really know how you could know this , but may be you are right and if so , thats great .....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

dont really know how you could know this , but may be you are right and if so , thats great .....

A have a guy who is near the top of the game valving them. I also know what a shock can and can't do. I also watch our car outrun guys who get recognized by DoD for being great regional and local racers, once the tracks slow down enough we aren't out-motored.

Once you have a shock that good enough to be consistent and not fade, they are really all the same. Now parts peddlers have to make you believe there's magic in the new ones, or else they have nothing to sell. Shock are there to smooth out the spring oscillation and in our case, we over damp them on some corners to force the aero platform to hold the correct attack angle. That actually hurts the suspension, but the aero is worth more than what we lose by handicapping the suspension. The new shock may come with some new damping curves that is marginally better, but there's nothing stopping someone from recreating it in a legacy piece. It's no different than our 2003 Masters car not bottoming out on the track, not running the suspension it was built to use, and not being outrun by the newer cars.

Now I totally understand there's been some crazy stuff done with shocks to take advantage of droop rules and whatnot. But, all of those things then create their own drawbacks as they impact the real job of the shock, to be a shock. Some of those same things that were done with shocks, should be achieved other ways, that don't hurt the suspension function.

[ftfiowa]

Vado didnt run thursday, how do people not know this?

[tsand]

So many of you forget before nascar became corperateitbwas nothing to see Earnhardt,Allison,Gant,Bodine and many others racing somewhere on their off weekend or the Saturday night before Sundays race

[EvelB7]

I agree , but you are proving my point as well , by doing it yourself , your able to do this because some one else paid the price for the research and passed it on to folks like us , MSB says he can rebuild or have some one rebuild his shocks , and I,m all for that , but the front runners are not rebuilding old wore out shocks , there buying the newest and best shocks out there for an ungodly amount of money and will prevail , lets say you do away with aero , mandate steel oil shocks and bring back the old ec3 tires for every one to run on , do you think that would produce better racing ????

The bodies are cheap downforce and it is easy for everyone to 'copy'. I think what us being pointed out is that with all that downforce and grip the engine becomes that much more important, making it that much more expensive. Short answer asking if they put in some shock rules, tire rules, etc. yes, I think we would see better racing; but I think the aero is the first place to go as fixing that big old hole in the air would make it way easier to race with each other. Again, if all these changes were made the same people would win. Just want the game to be cheap enough that people can afford to do it and we quit closing racetracks.

[fastford]

A have a guy who is near the top of the game valving them. I also know what a shock can and can't do. I also watch our car outrun guys who get recognized by DoD for being great regional and local racers, once the tracks slow down enough we aren't out-motored.

Once you have a shock that good enough to be consistent and not fade, they are really all the same. Now parts peddlers have to make you believe there's magic in the new ones, or else they have nothing to sell. Shock are there to smooth out the spring oscillation and in our case, we over damp them on some corners to force the aero platform to hold the correct attack angle. That actually hurts the suspension, but the aero is worth more than what we lose by handicapping the suspension. The new shock may come with some new damping curves that is marginally better, but there's nothing stopping someone from recreating it in a legacy piece. It's no different than our 2003 Masters car not bottoming out on the track, not running the suspension it was built to use, and not being outrun by the newer cars.

Now I totally understand there's been some crazy stuff done with shocks to take advantage of droop rules and whatnot. But, all of those things then create their own drawbacks as they impact the real job of the shock, to be a shock. Some of those same things that were done with shocks, should be achieved other ways, that don't hurt the suspension function.

do you really believe that JD could unbolt his shocks and bolt yours on and run just as good ??according to your reasoning , he should , no offence but I just cant buy that .....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

do you really believe that JD could unbolt his shocks and bolt yours on and run just as good ??according to your reasoning , he should , no offence but I just cant buy that .....

It depends on what they are doing, if anything, that isn't what a shock is designed to do. Also, there is the fact that no one in the country has the same motion ratios I do. Now that said, I can run a base xr1 set,they are just adjusted away from the starting point quite a bit. So considering that, it's very likely mine could be adjusted to work on his car just fine. These shocks have huge adjustment windows.

I'm 100% certain you could put them on the dyno and set them to not slow Bobby's car down. There's plenty of guys who have run xr1 shocks on longhorn and vice versa in testing. Some times, they wind up faster with the wrong combo. Shocks are really a commodity part, much more than people realize. It's just force vs velocity.

[Drop Shock]

do you really believe that JD could unbolt his shocks and bolt yours on and run just as good ??according to your reasoning , he should , no offence but I just cant buy that .....

As long as he had his same spring and bump combinations, then yes absolutely. Only thing that matters about shocks is who’s working on them and the availability of parts

[fastford]

It depends on what they are doing, if anything, that isn't what a shock is designed to do. Also, there is the fact that no one in the country has the same motion ratios I do. Now that said, I can run a base xr1 set,they are just adjusted away from the starting point quite a bit. So considering that, it's very likely mine could be adjusted to work on his car just fine. These shocks have huge adjustment windows.

I'm 100% certain you could put them on the dyno and set them to not slow Bobby's car down. There's plenty of guys who have run xr1 shocks on longhorn and vice versa in testing. Some times, they wind up faster with the wrong combo. Shocks are really a commodity part, much more than people realize. It's just force vs velocity.

I dont disagree with any thing you said , I still believe every thing progresses and now days , to have that latest greatest progression , you have to pay for it , you cant just walk around the pits like you could 30 years ago and look at other cars and see easy improvements you could make to your car , either way if you take the aero away , to be on top , you are gone have to have those expensive little improvements , good discussion MSR , I,m done .....