Where can we see side by side comparisons between bare chassis?

[84wedge]

I'd like to see an XR1, Longhorn, Capital, Black Diamond, you name it side by side with someone who knows their sh*t explaining what's different and why. Is there anything like that?

[Jking24]

No their isn't and besides the obvious it's not necessarily for any one reason. Everything in a chassis is realative to Somthing and not all manufacturers go about the process the same so you can't really derive much from having them side by side. The things you can see via that are usually more related to saftey and general construction practices not necessarily what makes it tick from a performance standpoint. Most manufactures today have pretty much eliminated most of the flex in the chassis that effects handling making the look and placement of particular bars less important. They have also eliminated most of the actual movement in the suspension so it really comes down to contact patches wheel base offsets and loads. The major chassis changes today are usually to accommodate a disired change in geometry or travel capability. So with in reason if you were to put all of one manufacturers pickup points onto another and run their components the car would act similar.

[Henry Every]

I don't think anyone has ever attempted to do what you are asking. I myself am constantly downloading any pics I can get from different chassis brands, going back 30+ years. I do it because I like to see the differences in design, layout. I get most of my images from for sale ads. From a construstion design stand point I liked Bloomquist cars, his cars were more rigid before the trend moved in that direction and he used simple rugged mounts instead of say flimsy aluminum like GRT use to like to use. GRT also used a wider rack than most when they were hot for example. Rayburn built his cars along a similar pattern almost his entire run while offering a few different models and styles. Bullitt was unique as well. I've trained myself to recognize the differences in the new cars but its difficult to describe on here. I'd recommend the Marketplace on FB, many pics on there and you'll soon see the differences. Geometry is a whole different question.

[Morgs153]

When I was at Cedar Lake for the USA Nationals I toured the pits and had a conversation with a very good long time regional racer about this very subject. There are some subtle differences maybe in some angles here and there but he told me that what you really don't know is what actual type of tubing is being used where. In some parts of the structure it might be different than others and you'll never get to know that from the eye test. As far as the brand that seems to be the leader right now he said - they certainly have some things figured out and have good people behind the brand in engineering and good feedback from the fact that top teams are running the brand. Dirt supers are often a flavor of the day kind of thing with a lot of monkey see monkey do going on. In time the competition begins to figure it out or figure out other things and it cycles around to another brand.

The secrets won't ever be obvious from looking at side by side comparisons of tubing welded together.

[84wedge]

Thanks for the answers. One more question, if there were a bare Rocket, Longhorn, Cat 5, Kryptonite etc etc beside each other with no manufacturer markings, how could you tell which is which?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

When I was at Cedar Lake for the USA Nationals I toured the pits and had a conversation with a very good long time regional racer about this very subject. There are some subtle differences maybe in some angles here and there but he told me that what you really don't know is what actual type of tubing is being used where. In some parts of the structure it might be different than others and you'll never get to know that from the eye test. As far as the brand that seems to be the leader right now he said - they certainly have some things figured out and have good people behind the brand in engineering and good feedback from the fact that top teams are running the brand. Dirt supers are often a flavor of the day kind of thing with a lot of monkey see monkey do going on. In time the competition begins to figure it out or figure out other things and it cycles around to another brand.

The secrets won't ever be obvious from looking at side by side comparisons of tubing welded together.

Tubing type should not affect the one-track performance. The reason it does is that often when the builder substitutes moly for a DOM or seam weld, they make the tube thinner. This has reduced the stiffness of that particular chassis member. It may actually be stronger in a crash, but it's more flexible in the operating range of the on-track loads. If it was swapped at the same dimensions, no change would result.

[hardracer32]

Thanks for the answers. One more question, if there were a bare Rocket, Longhorn, Cat 5, Kryptonite etc etc beside each other with no manufacturer markings, how could you tell which is which?

You can usually tell by the difference in rock screens, or rear bumpers. Not always though. Bloomquist rock guards are kinda narrow top to bottom and only have like 3 or 4 vertical bars. Longhorn, Rocket guards look similar but they have different rear bumpers. Kryptonite cars are pretty easy to spot from the rear due to the design of their rear bumper as well. It used to be a little easier to tell the difference by looking at cages and rock guards but several mfg are similar now. Captial is pretty easy to spot now because they cut their rock guards out of flat stock, maybe even aluminum but I'm not entirely sure on that part. Mastersbilt rock screens used to be fairly distinguishable as well but I think their's are now similar to most of the other guys.

[Henry Every]

When I was at Cedar Lake for the USA Nationals I toured the pits and had a conversation with a very good long time regional racer about this very subject. There are some subtle differences maybe in some angles here and there but he told me that what you really don't know is what actual type of tubing is being used where. In some parts of the structure it might be different than others and you'll never get to know that from the eye test. As far as the brand that seems to be the leader right now he said - they certainly have some things figured out and have good people behind the brand in engineering and good feedback from the fact that top teams are running the brand. Dirt supers are often a flavor of the day kind of thing with a lot of monkey see monkey do going on. In time the competition begins to figure it out or figure out other things and it cycles around to another brand.

The secrets won't ever be obvious from looking at side by side comparisons of tubing welded together.

This is very true, I had a friend back in the day that worked at Warrior assembling cars and hanging bodies. This was during the time when they were building Scott's cars. What some may not know is their were essentially 3 different chassis designs being built. 1) Was the standard Warrior 2) Was the Bloomquist car and 3) was the Black Magic cars. The Bloomquist cars looked similar to the standard Warrior but had unique geometry and different thickness frame rails and the cage/structure tubing was different thickness's and diameters as well. The Black Magic cars I believe(If my memory serves) was essentially a standard Warrior frame with Bloomquist geometry. So that just goes to show, eyeballs alone will only get you so far, but I still enjoy seeing whats being done but it all matters, or else they wouldn't bother.

[zyoung25]

You can usually tell by the difference in rock screens, or rear bumpers. Not always though. Bloomquist rock guards are kinda narrow top to bottom and only have like 3 or 4 vertical bars. Longhorn, Rocket guards look similar but they have different rear bumpers. Kryptonite cars are pretty easy to spot from the rear due to the design of their rear bumper as well. It used to be a little easier to tell the difference by looking at cages and rock guards but several mfg are similar now. Captial is pretty easy to spot now because they cut their rock guards out of flat stock, maybe even aluminum but I'm not entirely sure on that part. Mastersbilt rock screens used to be fairly distinguishable as well but I think their's are now similar to most of the other guys.

I can look at how the body sits on a car and give me a pretty good idea of what it might be. The style fuel cell, bumpers, and rock screens are definitely another way to tell what kind of chassis it is.

I can remember when certain chassis builders didn't use a rock screen in their cars. Crazy to think about to be honest.

[84wedge]

Tubing type should not affect the one-track performance. The reason it does is that often when the builder substitutes moly for a DOM or seam weld, they make the tube thinner. This has reduced the stiffness of that particular chassis member. It may actually be stronger in a crash, but it's more flexible in the operating range of the on-track loads. If it was swapped at the same dimensions, no change would result.

Wasn't there a Bloomquist interview with Flo where he talked about a chassis he built that was outlawed due to the tubing?

[84wedge]

Found it. "aero tubing" at 11:49

https://youtu.be/qvI25ZitQ58?si=MsUoTjYrGRRNjahQ

[Josh Bayko]

Thanks for the answers. One more question, if there were a bare Rocket, Longhorn, Cat 5, Kryptonite etc etc beside each other with no manufacturer markings, how could you tell which is which?

The cage structures and window bars are different enough between the brands that you could tell which is which that way.

[fastford]

I was at a lesser known chassis shop a few years back and they had a LH and a new XR1 sitting on the floor , on the jig was there new chassis which was a LH front end and a XR1 rear , this chassis done very well in the crate class and actually made the world one year in a super , how ever , the owner told me that unless you can afford to to provide a big name driver 3 rolling chassis , you could forget getting any recognition in todays late model chassis world , BTW , the only real difference in the two chassis that I could see was basically mounting points , window bars and such mean nothing , mounting points , what you connect to them and knowledge , with about all major chassis today is all that really matters ....JMO

[Tyy7777]

I don't think anyone has ever attempted to do what you are asking. I myself am constantly downloading any pics I can get from different chassis brands, going back 30+ years. I do it because I like to see the differences in design, layout. I get most of my images from for sale ads. From a construstion design stand point I liked Bloomquist cars, his cars were more rigid before the trend moved in that direction and he used simple rugged mounts instead of say flimsy aluminum like GRT use to like to use. GRT also used a wider rack than most when they were hot for example. Rayburn built his cars along a similar pattern almost his entire run while offering a few different models and styles. Bullitt was unique as well. I've trained myself to recognize the differences in the new cars but its difficult to describe on here. I'd recommend the Marketplace on FB, many pics on there and you'll soon see the differences. Geometry is a whole different question.

Are these pictures all organized? Would love to have a look if that was the case.

[Henry Every]

Are these pictures all organized? Would love to have a look if that was the case.

Uhmm, your talking about thousands of pictures... Most of mine are organized, but not all. Its an ongoing project, a hobby. You can find most of what you want to see on FB marketplace, simple searches and its all there to peruse. Here are a few from early mid 00's, around 2007-2010. a GRT Over rail, a Barry Wright and a Victory Circle like Moyer ran. I just grabbed them at random, most I have from multiple angles and some in the jig.