DLM Chassis changes 80’s to current?

[lurker]

After the demise of the DLM Camaro stock front clip cars, to tubing front clip —-- what were/are the changes to the overall chassis 80’s to current? Evolution wise?

• Wheelbase?
• Width?
• Front end width?
• A-arms?
• Engine setback?
• Other items not noticeable to the eye?

What were the differences in chassis back in the day <80’s> with a GRT, Shaw, Rayburn, Bullitt, Rocket, Barry Wright and so forth?

[Jking24]

Back then their were far less rules dictating many of the above listed. So their were much bigger variations from one builder to another. But the biggest thing from the 80's to the 90's-2000's was the transition from box (square) frame rails to complety tubular chassis and the transition from primarily leaf spring rear suspension to mostly 4 link. Most of the variations in the front suspension have been minimal. Same core design just variations in lengths angles and settings but to the average eye it all looks mostly the same. As much as some may disagree their has been very little changes from the early 2000's up to now. With the exception of one guy in 2015. The last ten years have been tailored around thinking about the car in attitude vs static and mostly refinining the existing designs to function better in race position. Most of the major changes to the core chassis design have all been focused around increased travel. It's in this way that modifieds have kinda nipped the technology bug in the tail so to speak. Basically all the tricks and money spent in dirt late models is too gain more travel and get the spoiler higher in one way or another. The mods have to have a factory frame rail in a factory location realative to the pickup points. This basically prevents you from traveling the car in excess. between that and the open style front end it kinda kills the aero platform witch is what is going to be the demise of the dirt latemodel for the second time. That's my very brief generational overview hope it helps

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Frames have gone from 2x3 main rail to 2" box, to 2" round to 1.75" round

Front track width has increased a bit, but nothing like it looks. Front construction has been stiffened up quite a bit from 20 years ago.

Rear frame section has gotten a lot narrower.

Rear suspension has gone leaf and coil to 4 link, back to leaf and coil, to 4 link again. Swing arm or z link stuff overlapped the leaf and 4 link stuff on both sides of the time window.

Just some comments to add to the ones above.

[HoosierDirtFan]

MY FAVORITE LATE MODEL BODY STYLE.

Just for reference for back in the 80’s.


Here are some picture of my close friend Mike Hollifield that recently passed away back on May 18th.
Chicagoland & Wheeler, Indiana racer #78 Mike Hollifield (red t-shirt & jeans

1988 Kankakee Speedway Limited Late Model Track Champion (13 Feature wins that year)

Here is his Late Model from 1988

Mike in the red shirt & jeans & friend and former racer Bryan Dunaway in the red Driver suit.
(Bryan was a member of Matt Kenneth’s 2003 NASCAR Championship team.)


Turn 3 at Kankakee (1988 season)



Hot laps before the races started (1988)


from the 1989 Kankakee track program

[84wedge]

Look at that, it resembles an actual car.The cars today would be better off if the a** end didn't jack up when they hit the gas.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Look at that, it resembles an actual car.The cars today would be better off if the a** end didn't jack up when they hit the gas.

Unless they lose the spoiler, there's zero chance of that.

[Morgs153]

The Camaro up until the 1981 model was a 108 inch wheelbase and most rule books at the time for both pavement and dirt had 108 as the minimum back then. So many of the builders back then were still building cars for both surfaces, especially Ed Howe who had a very big influence. In my area there were racers with Bemco, Frings, RanderCar (also a Howe dealer), Howe, and Dillon running both dirt and pavement. Then came the CJ Rayburn, Tri City Buggy, Jig A Lo, and so many other cars which became more specific to dirt. It was during that time around the late 70s early 80s that the cars became more surface specific. It was during that time also that the stock stub was going away and full tube cars were taking over. With no more stock stubs, there was also no more need for 5 inch screw jack springs and truck arm rear suspensions because that was also the time coil overs came into the fold, though leafs were still popular on dirt at that time.

Right around 1981 is when we started to see the offset car as well. No longer did racers/builders feel the need to have a perimeter center section car and the right side frame rails were moved inward to connect the front and rear clip. 1982 brought the smaller version of the factory Camaro/Firebird so the minimum wheelbase in the late model world became 105 inches. The slightly shorter wheelbase and offset chassis (for left side bias) is when it seems they also really fell in love with weight loss. The cars got more tubular and also went on a big diet as some starter to build very light.

The early 80s went through the crazy time of the wedge bodies, lightweight cars and huge rear tires before the UMP stepped in and standardized much of the rules for the dirt late model world.

That gets you up to a certain point where I would say the birth of the modern dirt late model more accurately began.

[Kromulous]

Those Wedge Cars and the Sprint Car RRs had to be a treat to drive.

[84wedge]

Unless they lose the spoiler, there's zero chance of that.

Nobody has the cajones to enforce any of the existing rules anyway.

[lurker]

• Thanks for the replies. I thought the topic might be an interesting topic for everyone and I love nostalgia and living in the past.
• HDF, Mike was a Hyperco industry customer to a friend of mine. I met Mike a few times when he was testing the new <at the time> composite leaf spring on his Modified. At His shop and Shady Hill if I remember correctly.
• I always thought the chassis got wider into the 2000’s. I guess it’s the bodies only.
• Did Ray Callahan and CJ Rayburn really influence the DLM chassis as much as one would think?
• Morgs, I knew a guy that bought a Mark Martin Howe asphalt ASA car and raced it on dirt.

[HoosierDirtFan]

• Thanks for the replies. I thought the topic might be an interesting topic for everyone and I love nostalgia and living in the past.
• HDF, Mike was a Hyperco industry customer to a friend of mine. I met Mike a few times when he was testing the new <at the time> composite leaf spring on his Modified. At His shop and Shady Hill if I remember correctly.
• I always thought the chassis got wider into the 2000’s. I guess it’s the bodies only.
• Did Ray Callahan and CJ Rayburn really influence the DLM chassis as much as one would think?
• Morgs, I knew a guy that bought a Mark Martin Howe asphalt ASA car and raced it on dirt.

yeah I know. His knowledge was incredible. Few had the ability to drive as smoothly as he did. Watch a lot of guys try and just couldn’t keep up. I was fortunate to lear a lot from him and some of are close friends. For me he was just smarter and not tearing up a car. The stories I have are those that I keep close to me and share with very few. Glad you got to know him like I did. Special human being behind the wheel of a race car. He always use to tease me because he knew that late 80’s early 90’s body and chassis styles where my favorite and now I’d like to have about 20-30 of them and have and old fashioned late model race. The hoop on the front nose on the front nose of the cars and how they raced set them apart form the way late models raced today. You didn’t see those cars hike up the rear end like they do know and the driver talent usually factored into the finish.

[Henry Every]

After the demise of the DLM Camaro stock front clip cars, to tubing front clip —-- what were/are the changes to the overall chassis 80’s to current? Evolution wise?

• Wheelbase?
• Width?
• Front end width?
• A-arms?
• Engine setback?
• Other items not noticeable to the eye?

What were the differences in chassis back in the day <80’s> with a GRT, Shaw, Rayburn, Bullitt, Rocket, Barry Wright and so forth?

Short answer, "YES".
initially after "Clip cars" came 2x3 frame rails and designs varied in both wide and narrow layouts, Bullitt I know offered both designs. This continued as the norm until the late 80's when frame rails decreased down to 2x2, but both were still manufactured. Suspension wise the designs were wide open with designs such as: Leaf/coils, half leafs, canti-levers, 3 link, 4 link and truck arm to name a few. The 80's also saw the arrival of carbon fiber brakes, but were later outlawed from cost. Going into the 90's the suspension designs narrowed to "Leaf/Coils, 4 link and the advent of Swing Arm". Swing Arm was the replacement or evolution of Canti-levers with a nod to leaf springs as well in the dimensions. Also in the 90's was a further frame rail change from 2x2 to a 2" RND rail. During this time also we had many different frame layouts, from equdistant(parallel) rails, to different varieties of underslung and over rail. The most common layout from the 80's thru most of the 90's was a splayed over-rail format that most leaf cars utilized but remained popular even while using other suspension designs, it was narrow in the front and progressively wider going rearward. The exception was the GRT that was becoming dominant for several years, but finally giving way to Rocket on the national stage due in part to health issues of Joe Garrison, and were all under rail up until the early 2000's. Rayburn offered many different layouts and widths, with his 104 under rail being probably the most common after the introduction of his swing arm cars, although it could be had in over rail too. The late 90's saw the introduction of what became know as the "On The Hook" setup, the placement of the LR spring and shock behind the axle on a 4 link suspension, which while adding instant forward traction also brought a few problems. Rayburn followed suit with his swing arm by adjusting the length of the swing arms and introducing more initial angle as well as changes to his pull bar system. By the end of 1998 everybody was toting the LF high in the air and cars began to have issues turning over and breaking shocks and other suspension bits. The 2000's saw changes in spring rates to the RF getting softer and by 2004/2005 right side frame rails were being raised to accommodate the increased roll of the chassis. During this time as well the frame rails decreased in size again down to 1-3/4 RND, but at first this was not accepted by all and 2" RND was offered along side, but eventually faded out as the bugs were worked out to make the 1-3/4 cars work better. There is a bunch more detail but that pretty much covers things up until 2015, after 2015 the rule makers went stupid and cost have quadrupled as a result.

[84wedge]

Who was the first car to have the rear end jack up in the air and the LR move forward and go behind the quarter panel?

[Henry Every]

Who was the first car to have the rear end jack up in the air and the LR move forward and go behind the quarter panel?

Skip Arp was already fooling with this as early as 1995/96 in a Warrior( I have a video of him doing this at the Dixie Speedway), but the official/actual moving the shock/spring behind was Skip Arp in 1998 in a GRT with specially made parts from Joe Garrison. Billy Moyer also had a Larry Shaw car he brought out in 1997 at Batesville(HAT race) that was doing some lifting. Later that same year Moyer debuted as well, a Frank McClendon/Rayburn collaboration known as, "Frankenstein" in 1997 that he won with in North Carolina(HAT race) that was doing some lifting. I don't know the details of these designs, but the idea was in the works for a few years. Skip Arp's version is what became whats the norm today, only the rest of the cars setup has been adapted to make it less extreme. I hate it...

1997 UDTRA Hav-A-Tampa Dirt Racing Series Arkansas 100 At Batesville Motor Speedway

https://youtu.be/4I1gmKlS-8E?si=Vu5RuKmT1So_gPC9

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

There was some pretty good hiking during the clamp days too. I'm not sure there's a straightforward answer to who was first.